25-06-2005 02:43									#1
	Hard-core fundamentalist leads Iran presidential vote Suffering from ads?

Even though this is largely a symbolic post, it still is dismaying to me. Iran appears to be heading right back into islamofascism...

quote: Early lead for Iranian hardliner Breaking news graphic The ultra-conservative mayor of Tehran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has taken an early lead in Iran's presidential run-off, election officials say. Results based on slightly more than a tenth of the vote show Mr Ahmadinejad on 60% compared to his more moderate opponent, Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. Officials said 3.1m ballots had been counted out of an estimated 29m votes. Earlier, supporters of Mr Rafsanjani, a former president, said victory for Mr Ahmadinejad would voting fraud.

	25-06-2005 02:45									#2
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Islamofacism as a result of a democratic vote

You crack me up, Dan.

	25-06-2005 02:48									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Islamofacism as a result of a democratic vote You crack me up, Dan.

Considering how Hitler got into power, I don't see what's funny.

	25-06-2005 02:48									#4
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It's funny, really. Everytime President Bush opens his mouth, all he manages to do is rile up the fundamentalists. Apparently, this works on Iran too.

	25-06-2005 02:51									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Islamofacism as a result of a democratic vote You crack me up, Dan.

The Iranian vote was not reasonably democratic. All except 6 candidates were barred from the vote.

	25-06-2005 02:51									#6
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So Dan, are you not in favour of democracy? The US has levelled most of Iraq to give it to the people

	25-06-2005 02:53									#7
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So wait... when you have a moderate candidate and a reform candidate freely allowed to run, it was rigged for the reactionary candidates?!

Just because the reform candidate couldn't get into the runoff, doesn't make it a 'fascist' government.

quote: Considering how Hitler got into power, I don't see what's funny.

Hitler got into power through fascist means? I thought his party was elected in democratic elections of the Weimar Republic?

	25-06-2005 02:53									#8
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Reds:

	25-06-2005 02:53									#9
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever So Dan, are you not in favour of democracy? The US has levelled most of Iraq to give it to the people

Troll baiting at its worst

Reds4EVER!!!

	25-06-2005 02:55									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Hitler got into power through fascist means? I thought his party was elected in democratic elections of the Weimar Republic?

That's the point.

	25-06-2005 02:55									#11
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Imran: Are you really going to argue that this election was reasonably democratic?

	25-06-2005 02:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's the point.

That Hitler was elected through democratic means?

quote: Imran: Are you really going to argue that this election was reasonably democratic?

Yep. While the Ayatollahs really controlled the executive, the parliament is a democratically elected body, as is the President.

	25-06-2005 02:59									#13
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Neither the Iranian presidency nor parliament are democratically elected in any way that I perceive the term. Almost all the candidates for the reformers were barred from running for parliament! All but 6 candidates for president were barred from running.

What kind of fvcked up democratic process is that?

	25-06-2005 03:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That Hitler was elected through democratic means?

To be really technical, that Hitler became Chancellor thanks to his party's strong showing in democratic elections.

	25-06-2005 03:04									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That Hitler was elected through democratic means?

Yes.

	25-06-2005 03:06									#16
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Troll baiting at its worst Reds4EVER!!!

Sorry

	25-06-2005 03:18									#17
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cmon guys.

first, all candidate had to be approved by the mullahs. Of about a thousand, like 6 were allowed. A RELATIVE moderate was allowed - the more radical opposition, who want a fully secular state, were kept from the ballot, as usual.

second, its not like this is even for a post that holds real power. Laws passed by the govt can be vetoed by the expediency council, and the security forces report to the guardian council, NOT to the govt.

Both of the above reasons are why they Iranian woman who won the Noble peace prize supported the movement to boycott the elections.

Third, despite all that, there were extensive reports of intimidation and fraud in the first round - its widely beleived that was why the relative moderate, Moin, lost, and a little known hardliner made it into the runoff.

I havent yet heard much about todays runoff. It will be interesting to see what accounts for the hardliner winning.


Is Iran totalitarian - no its not. But calling it a democracy is a bit silly.

And IF the hardliner wins, I suspect the vast majority of Iranians will be quite unhappy. The mask is finally off now.

	25-06-2005 03:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Neither the Iranian presidency nor parliament are democratically elected in any way that I perceive the term. Almost all the candidates for the reformers were barred from running for parliament! All but 6 candidates for president were barred from running. What kind of fvcked up democratic process is that?

And Mehdi Karoubi is who exactly? Mostafa Moin? They had 6 candidates, 1 being reformist. In the runoff, they have a hardliner and a moderate.

And the turnout was higher than the US Presidential election.

Yeah, I'd say it is a reasonable democratic election.

quote: that Hitler became Chancellor thanks to his party's strong showing in democratic elections.

Yes... and are you saying that the Tehran mayor is going to make Iran a fascist country if elected President? I don't think the Ayatollahs would like it that much.

	25-06-2005 03:21									#19
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"In the first round of voting last week, reformist candidates accused Iran's Revolutionary Guards and Basij security services of orchestrating a plot to boost Mr Ahmadinejad, previously considered an outsider.

Tensions were high during voting hours, as interior ministry officials monitored polling stations for evidence of malpractice.

Some people complained of illegal campaigning and unauthorised people in position at polling stations.

An interior ministry observer reported 300 complaints of violations in Tehran alone, the Associated Press news agency reports. "

	25-06-2005 03:27									#20
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


"And Mehdi Karoubi is who exactly? Mostafa Moin? They had 6 candidates, 1 being reformist. In the runoff, they have a hardliner and a moderate."

Moin is a relative moderate. From what I can gather, if you take the full Iranian political spectrum, from pro-mullah to anti-mullah, Moin is about at the center.

In the runoff they have a superhardliner, and a former hardline president who at least wants to look like a pragmatist. And there was no way they could have used fraud to keep Rafsanjani out of the runoff, that would have been too blatant. So they kept moin out, and got their guy into the runoff. Now they seem to have given their guy the victory. Interesting to see what Rafsanjani says now.


"And the turnout was higher than the US Presidential election."

Theres actually some dispute over the actual turnout, from what I can gather. Apparently they showed TV footage of people voting in a PRIOR election. I heard one woman saw herself voting on TV, even though she was boycotting this time.

	25-06-2005 03:27									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes... and are you saying that the Tehran mayor is going to make Iran a fascist country if elected President?

No. What makes you think that?

	25-06-2005 03:28									#22
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BBC

"The mayor shut down fast-food restaurants and required male city employees to have beards and long sleeves."

	25-06-2005 03:29									#23
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WaPo

"Aides to Rafsanjani, who was president from 1989 to 1997 and has cast himself as a reformer, accused the hardline Basij militia of trying to intimidate voters to back Ahmadinejad.

"We know massive irregularities have taken place in steering votes toward a certain candidate in which the Basij has played a role," one aide, Mohammad Atrianfar, told reporters

	25-06-2005 03:30									#24
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quote: In the runoff they have a superhardliner, and a former hardline president who at least wants to look like a pragmatist. And there was no way they could have used fraud to keep Rafsanjani out of the runoff, that would have been too blatant. So they kept moin out, and got their guy into the runoff. Now they seem to have given their guy the victory. Interesting to see what Rafsanjani says now.

You'd think if Iran was going to use fraud in their elections, Khatami would NEVER have been allowed to be elected. An authoritarian regime would never allow someone who criticises the government that much to be President.

The problem is, in the end, that the Ayatollah's are too strong, AND, the people of Iran like the hardliners. These aren't liberal Westerners. The youth may want some change, but not enough of them.

	25-06-2005 03:34									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: In the runoff they have a superhardliner, and a former hardline president who at least wants to look like a pragmatist. And there was no way they could have used fraud to keep Rafsanjani out of the runoff, that would have been too blatant. So they kept moin out, and got their guy into the runoff. Now they seem to have given their guy the victory. Interesting to see what Rafsanjani says now. You'd think if Iran was going to use fraud in their elections, Khatami would NEVER have been allowed to be elected. An authoritarian regime would never allow someone who criticises the government that much to be President. The problem is, in the end, that the Ayatollah's are too strong, AND, the people of Iran like the hardliners. These aren't liberal Westerners. The youth may want some change, but not enough of them.

Well first of all, i dont think Khatami really represented the more antiregime elements in Iran. Second I dont think that they didnt use fraud to stop Khatami means they will never ever use it again. They obviously didnt think it was worth it then - they thought it was a good way to let off steam, and they didnt realize that the students would try to push khatami to go further - and maybe they feel more threatened now, with changes around the region.

So far the people other than the students, and some isolated ethnic minorities, havent rebelled. But theyve made some concessions to avert rebellion. Not clear if this new guy will stick with those.

	25-06-2005 03:34									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You'd think if Iran was going to use fraud in their elections, Khatami would NEVER have been allowed to be elected. An authoritarian regime would never allow someone who criticises the government that much to be President.

Maybe they got tired of Khatami's yapping and decided it was time for action.

	25-06-2005 03:40									#27
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I would have thought if they got tired of Khatami's "yapping" it would have been before the elections when he was doing so. They let him run in two elections. He didn't start his "yapping" at the end of his term.

I wonder how many people would be pissy if the Reformist candidate made it to the runoff with Rafsanjani.

	25-06-2005 03:44									#28
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CSM

"Still, one appeal of Ahmadinejad, several voters said yesterday, was that he was not a cleric.

“No more clergy!” ranted a taxi driver, Yacoub Balali, explaining his vote for the mayor with a twist of his hand above his head, as if he were unwinding a turban. “Everyone I know is voting for Ahmadinejad; all Tehran is for him.”"

I suspect some folks in Iran are going to be very disappointed with the man they voted for.

	25-06-2005 03:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I would have thought if they got tired of Khatami's "yapping" it would have been before the elections when he was doing so. They let him run in two elections. He didn't start his "yapping" at the end of his term. I wonder how many people would be pissy if the Reformist candidate made it to the runoff with Rafsanjani.

Actually im think this MAY be a good thing. A clarifying thing. The era of Khatami did NOT lead to real reform in Iran, and was accompanied by crushing of dissent. If they didnt shut Khatamis yapping, they sure shut the yapping of many who supported him.

	25-06-2005 03:47									#30
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I'm sure Tehran's populace is familiar with their mayor and his policies. Remember Khatami is a cleric as well.

Perhaps they think that non-clerics would advance more legislation to benefit the working man (in terms of social policy, etc).