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skrobism
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The Babylonian People need to make up their minds on these outstanding issues.
1 - Three Nation Alliance (TNA)
Is this for real? Do we trust Blood Oath Hoard (BOH) or not? If we do not, does it make sense to go to war against Delsolation Row (DR)? Where do we stand with Euphorica?
The Way Of Inanna shows us that alliances are good but DR has done us no wrong.
Let us not attack DR.
Euphorica understood that we might not get involved militarily, so we break no promises there. BOH is making questionable deals with the Moporkians (AM). Are they pulling us out of the way for an invasion?
2 - The Incense City Site
It sure looks like at least 4 civs are building in that direction: Lost Boys (LB), AM, BOH, and us. We seem to agree that this site is rightfully Babylonian. Let us build there. We will need to defend it. This site gives us a resource desired by the world. This is The Way Of Inanna.
3 - Desolation Row (DR)
We are marching to war against a nation that barely shows up on our maps. They have offered to grow in the sciences with us. What have they ever done to Babylon? I was all in favor of TNA when it was first presented to us, but BOH seems set on manipulating us. First against AM then pulling us all the way across the island to attack DR. Why?
Our vision statement (for lack of a better term) on the public Babylonian thread states, "Don't mess with us as we will make you pay". What is DR paying for? We have a chance to grow in the sciences with DR. Let us make that deal before we go to war against a possible friend.
4 - Lost Boys
LB is looking to trade. The Way of Inanna is to build a harbor, get a coastal Right Of Passage (ROP), and trade. We don't want a road into LB lands that can be used to attack us.
5 - The Moporkians
I don't know what they are up to. If they have seen the maps that we drew up with BOH, then we look hostile towards AM. We should contact our neighbors to the north, settle any border disputes, and start trading. We do not need a war.
6 - Winning
The Way Of Inanna is to win this game by means other than war. Through science, and culture, with a strong defense we can become victorious. This should be our goal.
Let us make up our minds before taking another turn.
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skrobism
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Maybe we should look at the BOH thread. Does this come just in time?
Refering to my issues above (1&3)
Do we honor the TNA and move forward with the attack?
We need resolution. The basis of this is do we trust BOH? If yes, and if we are part of the TNA, do we attack DR?
I have to argue against war against a civ that has done us no harm.
But, how do we continue then to honor a Three Nation Alliance that has benefits for us?
I must defer to the wise decisions of Kloreep and Beta who have led this nation.
How do you read the situtation?
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skrobism
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Micha,
Thanks for the input on Paddy. I don't play PBEMs so I don't know how certailn people play. This is helpful.
Kloreep,
You mentioned that someone should contact AM and BOH. Were you telling/asking me to? I call contact via email, but doubt that I have time for IMs. I could try that though.
Everyone,
Based on input so far we should honor TNA and attack DR. Am I reading this correct?
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:36
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Folks - first let me apologize for my absence as of late. RL has been busy - and my limited Poly time got dedicated to catching up in pbem's. (I know I know - priorities..  )
I also got a new computer this weekend - and have been playing (aka fighting) with it. 
So - my thoughts. Well, I sort of feel guilty getting us committed to the TNA, and it is quite a quandry we find ourselves in now.
As Kloreep has stated, if we pull out now we will have alienated two civs for the long turn.
Also - to be honest - if I had to go down to a final two with either BOH or DR, I would take BOH. In other words, I think DR is the stronger team.
I also think Euphorica is stronger than BOH, but that will be a bridge to cross down the road.
I like the plan to take out DR and then AM. It seems to me that we need to clarify the AM-BOH matter. I suspect it is simply BOH protecting itself while they are off fighting DR, but we should be careful.
Lost Boys - 1889 is a solid player - we should get real close to them. It covers one of our flanks, and could give us a stalwart ally if the everything else comes apart.
Skro - I agree that the attcak on DR is unjustified in absolute terms, and that it does run contrary to our stated goal, but we are somewaht committed.
If we did pull out of the attack - could we pull back to full neutrality. I suspect we could in the short term, but as mentioned above, our rep with BOH and Euphorica would be petty much shot. But we would have the advantage of sitting back and peacefully growing while they waste resources on war.
Or, we attempt the 4 way alliance of DR, LB, and AM against BOH and Euphorica. That is not a bad option - and in my mind preferable to neutrality, where we will have pi$$ed of BOH and AM and this may hurt us in the long term. . At least in the 4 on 2 war - and assuming we win - we won't have to worry about their view one way or the other - short or long term.
Back to the original plan to complete my thoughts. The war will only cost us some horsemen at the most - which is OK. It is being fought far from our territory - which is good. We won't get much from it in terms of territory - which is bad. It puts us on good terms with BOH and Euphorica, and neutral terms with LB and AM - although I suspect LB will be keeping an eye open.
And one more thought - and maybe the most relevant. BOH and Euphorica forged an early alliance. From what I have seen of Paddy in pbem's and demo games (PTWDG2), he is utterly faithful to his alliances. We may be part of the TNA, but I firmly believe we are the 3rd nation in. So, if you follow my logic, if we proceed to take out DR, and then AM, we had better have a solid alliance with LB to fall back on.
So scenario one goes like this ....
We stick with the TAN alliance for now. The TNA takes out DR and then AM, and then we scramble for an alliance with LB, leaving Babylon and LB facing off against BOH and Euphorica.
Scenario two ...
We back out of the TNA alliance, and go for neutrality. I suspect BOH and Euphorica will eventually wear DR down. That will leave Euphorica and BOH very tight - and not liking us. We would have to be ready to ally as quickly as possible with AM and LB. This scenario has to many possibilities for us being the odd civ out.
Scenario three "A"...
We back out of the TNA, ally with DR, and put a call to arms for AM and LB. Presuming that works. it is 4 on 2, with the end result being AM, LB, DR, and ourselves remaining, and as far as I can tell, no two of them are particularly close - although I susepct DR and LB have potential.
Scenario three "B" ...
As per 3A, but let's presume AM and LB sit on the sidelines. We are now in a 2 on 2 war, with our ally (DR) one civ removed (ie LB between us), and two civs remaining neutral and peacefully growing. This sucks.
Looks like either 1 or 3A. And if it is going to be 3A, we need commitments from LB and AM. And we need them now.
And 1 has the fewest variables in the short term - and who knows - we may be able to break up the BOH-Euphorica alliance down the road.
What does the rest of Babylon think?
Skro - have I made you reconsider?
Please register your opinion here - and then we will need to act quickly (or not) depending on the views of the people.
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:36
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In going back over some discussions and chats with Euphorica and BOH, I thought this was quite significant - and relevant to our current dilemma.
It is a chat between snoopy369 of Euphorica and me, during the period when the TNA was being discussed and formed.
Note BOH's early views on the alliance as stated by snoopy - who was being straight up in this chat.
Also note his logic for eliminating DR.
quote:
Beta says:
The BOH -Babylon relationship is getting seriously frayed.
Beta says:
They presneted us with a border deal as I explained.
Beta says:
They figure that since they attacked A_M unilaterally, they get the land.
Beta says:
We explained that in an alliance, there has to be something in it for everyone.
snoopy369 says:
Yes.
Beta says:
Paddy says his teams views stand - and that now they are pissed with us.
Beta says:
Although tonight he did ask for a counter-proposal.
Beta says:
Whic for us - would be to split the A-M land.
snoopy369 says:
You and Paddy have a very different view of things here.
Beta says:
Yes - clearly.
snoopy369 says:
This is where the issue is coming.
snoopy369 says:
Paddy does not view this as a permanent alliance. He views this as an anti-DR alliance.
Beta says:
My folks thinks he brings a pbem view of things.
Beta says:
Yes - agreed.
Beta says:
In which case - our view is why bother.
snoopy369 says:
Hence why he does not take the AM part into account with you; he feels that they are separate issues.
Beta says:
DR is no threat to us.
snoopy369 says:
Well - that is your choice.
snoopy369 says:
I had presumed you were interested in the alliance, when it was brought to us.
snoopy369 says:
But we had no knowledge of why, or on what terms
Beta says:
Our agreement to the DR campaign was for a long-term alliance.
snoopy369 says:
Was it?
snoopy369 says:
in writing, I mean?
snoopy369 says:
or was it implied??
Beta says:
Implied.
snoopy369 says:
Paddy was very specific with us, that he did not think of this as a long term alliance, but as a specific alliance; not that we can't work together as a group towards common goals, but that the three of us were, first, an alliance for one goal.
snoopy369 says:
We are more flexible, than he is, i think, in this regard.
Beta says:
And more reasonable too I may add.
snoopy369 says:
We see a need to eliminate DR, now, for two reasons, one of which you share, possibly the other.
snoopy369 says:
I like to think so.
snoopy369 says:
One, that you share I presume, is that Aqua's team, if fully active, is the most dangerous in the game. It contains some of the best PBEM players, and some of the more knowledgable DG players, at Poly.
snoopy369 says:
And furthermore they have, at this stage in the game, the most dangerous civ.
Beta says:
Understood.
snoopy369 says:
Thus, they are *inherently* a danger, in and of themselves, regardless of map position or anything else.
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skrobism
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Thanks Beta. If you say we can trust Paddy and crew for now, that's okwith me.
OK. We stick with the TNA and fight DR.
That is The Way of Inanna (She was always fickle)
I will read the other posts tomorrow. good night all.
Last edited by skrobism on 27-06-2005 at 20:39
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skrobism
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still reading... working and reading...
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skrobism
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numbers are from my first post...
1 - TNA
It looks to be for real. We should complete the outstanding trade talks. We should go public with TNA just as we attack DR. BOH is hiding something, we are not (from TNA at least). We made this bed, now it's time to cozy up to our bedfellows. I think this is the honorable thing to do. If we are stabbed in the back later - so be it.
2 - Incense City Site
Maybe we use this site as a negotiation point with the other civs. Maybe it is a bit of a reach to throw ourselves way over there right now. This is not the biggest issue on our plate.
3 - DR
I still don't think attacking DR is The Way, but oh well see #1. So, DR must go.
4 - Lost Boys
LB is looking to trade. The Way of Inanna is to build a harbor, get a coastal Right Of Passage (ROP), and trade. We don't want a road into LB lands that can be used to attack us.
Start friendly talks on border issues that we might have with our neighbors.
5 - The Moporkians
Border talks have begun. See #2. They seem friendly for now. They seem to contradict the comments from BOH. If BOH really has AM under its thumb BOH should send us screenies of the occupied territory.
6 - Winning
The Way Of Inanna is to win this game by means other than war. Through science, and culture, with a strong defense we can become victorious. This should be our goal.
We need to brace ourselves for war (AM, BOH?) with a strong defense.
-----------
I think I'm all caught up on the situations. These are my final votes whether I like them or not.
Let me know if there is anything I can do to help on the diplo side.
Last edited by skrobism on 27-06-2005 at 22:33
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planet
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Is snoopy369 to be trusted? Does anyone know him well? or any of the Euphorica's? I read E_T's detailed post on Paddy the liar, not nice. I suppose people in the Japan democracy game already aware of his lies. E_T, your information is a great sign for the future.
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skrobism
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But in the Japanese Demo game it is different. It is a succession style demo game where we are all on the same side.
I have never played against snoopy369 or paddy before. This is why I asked for others input.
I say we made this alliance, now we need to live up to it or else we are the ones not to be trusted.
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skrobism
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Based on the public battle reports...
I say that we need to reach out through diplo channels (email) to send our support to Euphorica.
We need to find out if the war is to be stopped for now or does it continue?
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skrobism
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OK. When does this glorious alliance get announced to the world?
Aqualung71 has called us liars? AM questions us? Beta & I have commented - neither confirming nor denying.
I pretty much told AM that we are riding to war to help BOH and Eu.
I would feel safer if we announced the TNA; the BOH and Eu openly confirmed.
Let us start a thread to honor the war dead by name, and confirm the TNA.
What do we have to hide at this point? Shall we?
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skrobism
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Shall I now? It could be a beautiful momument to the Three Nation Alliance, its war dead, and its victories!
Now? Can I?
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skrobism
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Ah it will be a beautiful thing. Watch for it soon...
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skrobism
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It is done. and no more than a minute later I got a PM from 1889. He wants to send me a diplomatic email. I will keep you posted in the LB thread.
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planet
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Nice thread skrobism!! Did BoH hijack it?
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skrobism
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As long as I have access to the top 5 or so posts it will be fine. BOH can post there. I just don't want DR to stink it up. :P
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skrobism
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We need to find out what TNA thinks about this neutrality business. I think it's great. Peaceful neighbors!
re: Peace process
Are there any acceptable terms? Who speaks for TNA? Who speaks for Babylon? There can be no separate peace.
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26-06-2005 23:33
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