27-06-2005 23:53									#31
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quote: But that is the whole point. IE is costing companies millions of dollars. For web designers it's a pain in the ass and who do you think is plonking down the money to make corporate sites IE compatible? I wonder why mr. Microsoft has left this thread?

Are we talking about IE6 which is a POS and to which Firefox provides a better alternative, or IE7, which I haven't tried and am very willing to give a go?

	28-06-2005 01:32									#32
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quote: Opera sucks (though they continue to make efforts to copy Firefox's simplicity) because the designers so obviously "don't get it" in terms of user interface design. Go figure, because most of the Opera users I know are web designers who seem to forget that Opera has some of the worst JavaScript support out of all browsers. Web Browsers are made for the customer, not for the developer.

Oh? I would think that designers would be the first to notice bad javascript support. I never had any trouble writing javascript that worked in both Opera and Firefox.

And IE is made for the customer? If you really believe that than there is no reason to argue any more, I have better things to do. Just stay happy in your Microsoft dream.

	28-06-2005 01:37									#33
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quote: Are we talking about IE6 which is a POS and to which Firefox provides a better alternative, or IE7, which I haven't tried and am very willing to give a go?

I'm talking about both. If I read the IE7 developers blogs correctly only a couple of CSS issues will be taken on. Designers still will have the same two options: charging the client (who will undoubtly get his money back by charging his customers ie you and me) extra money to make the site work in IE as it is supposed to, or building sites like we did in 1997.

	28-06-2005 01:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Oh? I would think that designers would be the first to notice bad javascript support. I never had any trouble writing javascript that worked in both Opera and Firefox.

I don't think you've tried more complex javascript then. At least IE is capable of a lot, even if it is bizarre and buggy. But some things just don't work in Opera because they're not supported at all. That being said, it is now better than it used to be. FF still wins, though.
Edit: I guess I'm mostly thinking of stylesheet related functions here...though, Opera also seems to get confused for no apparent reason when you start to really mess around with adding/removing lots of DOM nodes.

	28-06-2005 02:26									#35
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Opera has strange Javascript support, but outside of that, its adherence to standards makes it much easier to design for alongside Firefox than IE's poor standards support.

IE7 is supposed to fix a lot of that, but it still sounds like they're not going to go all the way.

	28-06-2005 03:33									#36
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Opera
Firefox
IE

	28-06-2005 07:22									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I thought it was fairly well-known that I support Firefox... The point is, Firefox was doing what users want. Now IE is doing more of the same. That's a good thing. I don't give a damn about the political bickering a lot of you get caught up in, all I care about is nice products.

I , too , think that IE improving is a good think . I do not think that MS is "teh evil 11!!!11" .

But I do not like it when MS/IE get the credit/mindshare for someone else's work . It's a simple concept called "fairness" .

	28-06-2005 07:25									#38
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So what you're saying is Firefox should patent the simplistic web browser UI to prevent people like Microsoft from using a simplistic web browser UI.

	28-06-2005 07:28									#39
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No , that's not what I said . I'm saying that MS should behave morally on its own , and not lift the UI straight out of Firefox . Is that too much to ask ?

	28-06-2005 07:30									#40
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To be honest I'm having a hard time seeing what is lifted straight from Firefox in the image Mark posted...

	28-06-2005 12:50									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij For web designers it's a pain in the ass and who do you think is plonking down the money to make corporate sites IE compatible?

Tell me about it.

Once I tried to make a list in to a horizontal menu. The CSS code worked perfectly in Firefox, but IE refused to float the elements. All the known hacks were tested but IE wouldn't budge.

So, several hours later, I accidentally added a width attribute. A miracle then occured and IE rendered the code as expected.

Of course, then I couldn't have variable width tabs, but it was better then nothing.

	28-06-2005 12:55									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Are we talking about IE6 which is a POS and to which Firefox provides a better alternative, or IE7, which I haven't tried and am very willing to give a go?

IE 5 (or 6, for that matter) for Windows has extremely poor standard CSS and HTML support, while IE5 for the Mac has way, way better support.

Doesn't that make you wonder?

	28-06-2005 16:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm No , that's not what I said . I'm saying that MS should behave morally on its own , and not lift the UI straight out of Firefox . Is that too much to ask ?

No. I honestly don't care, as long as I get a better browser.

	28-06-2005 16:44									#44
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I avoid microshaft software at every opportunity, and IE 7 will be no different.

	28-06-2005 20:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No. I honestly don't care, as long as I get a better browser.

You don't give a damn about morality ? You wouldn't care if the place you worked for paid you with stolen money , and you knew it was stolen ?

	28-06-2005 20:24									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Asher To be honest I'm having a hard time seeing what is lifted straight from Firefox in the image Mark posted...

The entire browser format ( like the search bar ) , and the simplicity of the UI ?

	28-06-2005 20:32									#47
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm The entire browser format ( like the search bar ) , and the simplicity of the UI ?

File menu at the bottom of the toolbar at the top, with icons next to it? Nothing like Firefox.

The only thing that looks similar to me is putting the search box in the top right corner.

If it works so well, why not use it?

Next you're going to be griping about having the back button on the far left of the toolbar.

	28-06-2005 20:58									#48
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm The entire browser format ( like the search bar ) , and the simplicity of the UI ?

Don't waste your time aneeshm. Even if Microsoft put "Stolen from Firefox" in the menu bar, he'd still deny it.

	28-06-2005 21:02									#49
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The irony here, of course, is Safari also has the search field in the top right and no one is complaining about that.

In fact, the person who posted the screenshot of Safari's "Firefox ripoff" interface is here vilifying MS.

	28-06-2005 23:18									#50
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quote: I'm talking about both. If I read the IE7 developers blogs correctly only a couple of CSS issues will be taken on. Designers still will have the same two options: charging the client (who will undoubtly get his money back by charging his customers ie you and me) extra money to make the site work in IE as it is supposed to, or building sites like we did in 1997.

Well I haven't read those blogs so I can't possibly comment on them. It seems to me however that if sites are developed so that they will run on most machines, then those are the "standards" so to speak. They may not be consistent but that's a problem for developers not users, and as a user I can't say that IE has costed me any money .

quote: IE 5 (or 6, for that matter) for Windows has extremely poor standard CSS and HTML support, while IE5 for the Mac has way, way better support. Doesn't that make you wonder?

About IE7? No not really .

I for one don't think you can prejudge IE7 (which none of us have used) by IE6!

As for the "who invented what" question, who really gives a ****? I mean sure if I were a religious Firefox developer and I put a concept into the public domain that another company decided they like and they'd use, I'd either feel hard-done-by or complimented. If the difference there is which company uses that concept, then your opposition is political and not technical, and a prejudiced decision is always inferior to an objective one.

	28-06-2005 23:25									#51
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I think it's a good thing when products adopt popular and good UI practices and unless you want patents on UI interfaces everyone should keep their mouth shut about who "stole" from whom.
In the end, the only ones who are profiting are we, the customers, anyway.

	28-06-2005 23:32									#52
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quote: They may not be consistent but that's a problem for developers not users, and as a user I can't say that IE has costed me any money .

Than I hope for your sake that your eye sight won't get worse as you grow older or that you will get depended on keystrokes instead of using a mouse. Standards are not for the benefit of developers but for assuring accesible sites for everyone.

	28-06-2005 23:37									#53
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quote: Than I hope for your sake that your eye sight won't get worse as you grow older or that you will get depended on keystrokes instead of using a mouse. Standards are not for the benefit of developers but for assuring accesible sites for everyone.

Which has exactly what relevance for IE7? You're working on the assumption that IE7 will make the web essentially unviewable!

	28-06-2005 23:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Standards are not for the benefit of developers but for assuring accesible sites for everyone.

Most ridiculous statement I've heard in a while.

Standards were made by web developers to make web development easier.

Accessibility is independent of Standards. You can have a non-standards compliant accessible website...

	28-06-2005 23:59									#55
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Sure... Glad I'm not Agathon...

	29-06-2005 00:06									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Which has exactly what relevance for IE7? You're working on the assumption that IE7 will make the web essentially unviewable!

As far as I know IE7 won't be that different from IE6 and because most sites are developed with IE6 in mind that means that the web IS unusable for blind or sight impaired people. Ever used a screenreader with a site that was built in tables?

Ever tried browsing the web with only keystrokes? Should be easy with just standard build sites and a decent browser. With IE OTOH...

Just do a Google search on "website accesibility".

	29-06-2005 00:25									#57
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quote: As far as I know IE7 won't be that different from IE6

That is the entire crux and premise of your argument but can you provide any links?

	29-06-2005 00:43									#58
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The last we heard from the IE7 development team was in April: https://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2.../22/410963.aspx

Disregarding IE's famous security "features" it's about PNG Alpha channels and some float bugs, that's all.

	29-06-2005 02:57									#59
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm You don't give a damn about morality ? You wouldn't care if the place you worked for paid you with stolen money , and you knew it was stolen ?

I don't see how morality comes into it. The point of Microsoft, as far as I'm concerned, is to make software that does what I want it to.

	29-06-2005 06:58									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Don't waste your time aneeshm. Even if Microsoft put "Stolen from Firefox" in the menu bar, he'd still deny it.

Nope , if they said put that sign there , he'd say that it was justified .

I'm more concerned with MS gaining unearned credit - as said before , I had to correct my dad yesterday when he said that MS developed and produced RSS .