29-06-2005 06:59									#61
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MS themselves support "look and feel" patents , yet they lift the idea of simplicity in the interface from another browser , and that is not considered hypocritical ? From the same company that sued a teenager called Mike Rowe who opened a site called www.mikerowesoft.com because it sounded like Microsoft ?

That's where morality comes in - its hypocritical .

	29-06-2005 07:17									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy That is the entire crux and premise of your argument but can you provide any links?

The only way they could make IE7 markedly different from IE6 is if they threw away the entire code base of IE6 and started from scratch.

That's how Mozilla got here. I can't see Microsoft doing that. Besides, the IE code is now too co-mingled with Windows for that to happen anyway.

	29-06-2005 08:36									#63
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm MS themselves support "look and feel" patents , yet they lift the idea of simplicity in the interface from another browser , and that is not considered hypocritical ? From the same company that sued a teenager called Mike Rowe who opened a site called www.mikerowesoft.com because it sounded like Microsoft ? That's where morality comes in - its hypocritical .

Do you see MS suing sites that host IE themes for Opera/Mozilla/Firefox?

For what it's worth, Safari looks like a complete clone of Firefox. IE7 looks quite a bit different.

I heard no one complaining about Apple "stealing" the interface simplicity. And, of course, Apple is also the company who threatens litigation to people who hosted Aqua-esque themes on their websites for Windows.

	29-06-2005 08:37									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The only way they could make IE7 markedly different from IE6 is if they threw away the entire code base of IE6 and started from scratch. That's how Mozilla got here. I can't see Microsoft doing that. Besides, the IE code is now too co-mingled with Windows for that to happen anyway.

What world do you live in?

Mozilla isn't a from-scratch product. A lot is, some is not.

And I don't see anything inherently wrong with IE that would force them to throw it all away and start from scratch. Only an IT-monkey or web-monkey would suggest such a stupid thing, to be sure. Somebody (theoretically, that is) that would be clueless about the whole software engineering process might say such a thing, for instance.

	29-06-2005 09:51									#65
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm MS themselves support "look and feel" patents , yet they lift the idea of simplicity in the interface from another browser , and that is not considered hypocritical ? From the same company that sued a teenager called Mike Rowe who opened a site called www.mikerowesoft.com because it sounded like Microsoft ? That's where morality comes in - its hypocritical .

Of course it is. They ripped off the Mac ("I want mac on a PC" - B Gates) and they'll rip off anyone to save themselves.

	29-06-2005 09:59									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course it is. They ripped off the Mac ("I want mac on a PC" - B Gates) and they'll rip off anyone to save themselves.

Apple, on the other hand, invents everything on their own.

Take a graphical interface, for example. Never happened before Apple!
Or a mouse! Apple invented that.
They also invented the MP3 player.

rah rah Apple, saviors of the universe.

	29-06-2005 12:37									#67
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Asher , I'm rying to make a moral point - they MS is hpocritical in some of tis stances on issues like look and feel patents . They support such patents , yet they do not think that lifting stuff from others is a violation of that support .

I'm saying that to be consistent , thy have to drop one of the two - either the support for look-and-feel patents , or lifting from other interfaces .







And the points you raise ( that Apple did not invent the GUI , or the mouse , or mp3s ) are important in that they show that with patents , none of these things would have spread ( beyond , say , Xerox , in case of the GUI ) , and thus they serve to show how your own position is slightly inconsistent .

	29-06-2005 13:52									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Somebody (theoretically, that is) that would be clueless about the whole software engineering process might say such a thing, for instance.

You are assuming that Microsoft uses sound software engineering principles. There are no signs they are.

So much for the MS fanboy.

	29-06-2005 16:18									#69
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You mean besides the fact that they hire software engineers?

UR, please, if you're going to respond to Asher, at least think before you post.

	29-06-2005 18:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You are assuming that Microsoft uses sound software engineering principles. There are no signs they are. So much for the MS fanboy.

You wouldn't be able to recognize "sound" software engineering principles if you don't know what they are.

There are actually methods of software engineering that were "invented"/refined/discovered at Microsoft that are used in textbook case studies in software engineering courses these days.

From the posts I've seen from you, software engineering seems like a foreign concept to you (like liberty from censorship).

	29-06-2005 19:26									#71
	Suffering from ads?

Banning rod level Orange!

	30-06-2005 00:23									#72
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm You wouldn't care if the place you worked for paid you with stolen money, and you knew it was stolen?

No, they're capitalists.

	30-06-2005 01:34									#73
	Increase the size of your Attachments

People with too many bathrooms don't have to care about anything.

	30-06-2005 01:48									#74
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quote: Asher , I'm rying to make a moral point - they MS is hpocritical in some of tis stances on issues like look and feel patents

Morality doesn't come into it. The moral value of one web browser over another is an absurd idea! It's like you have two companies manufacturing hammers. One uses wood for its handles, the other uses plastic. The former does a better job than the latter, so the latter switches to wood.

It's such a simple idea that anyone with even the grasp of supply-and-demand can get it. If you don't understand supply and demand, then the last thing you should be doing is developing software!

Bringing morality into it only serves the purpose of revealing just how sad you are to attach such importance to a 4.5Mb download.

	30-06-2005 05:01									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Morality doesn't come into it. The moral value of one web browser over another is an absurd idea! It's like you have two companies manufacturing hammers. One uses wood for its handles, the other uses plastic. The former does a better job than the latter, so the latter switches to wood. It's such a simple idea that anyone with even the grasp of supply-and-demand can get it. If you don't understand supply and demand, then the last thing you should be doing is developing software! Bringing morality into it only serves the purpose of revealing just how sad you are to attach such importance to a 4.5Mb download.

Of course browsers have no moral value in and of themselves . But a corporation's stances on issues relating to browsers do . If you read what I said carefully , you'll find that is what I said - that MS is hypocritical in some regards , not that IE is immoral . You've apparently misinterpreted me .