28-06-2005 20:24									#1
	Expensive Cities Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Curious to your thoughts on this,

One interesting thing - soCalifornians are always *****-ing about how expensive San Francisco is while this whole time, Los Angeles is considered to be more expensive. Having some prime real estate in Santa Monica and Beverly Hills probably did not help.

quote: World's most expensive cities Survey: Tokyo and Osaka take top spots, followed by London, Moscow and Seoul. June 22, 2005: 2:40 PM EDT NEW YORK (CNN/Money) – It's hard to make New Yorkers feel good about the absurd amounts of money required to live comfortably in Gotham. But a survey out this week might at least make them feel a little better. That's because Tokyo continues to earn the dubious distinction of being the world's most expensive city to live in, according to a survey released this week by Mercer Human Resources Consulting. No. 2 on the list is Osaka, another major Japanese city, which moved up from its fourth place ranking last year. Osaka's ascent pushed London to No. 3, and Moscow to No. 4. Coming in fifth is Seoul, which ascended two spots from its position in last year's survey. As for New York, it fell one spot in the rankings to No. 13 on a worldwide basis, tying it with Dublin. But New York still ranks No. 1 in North America, followed by Los Angeles, which ranks No. 44 on a worldwide basis, White Plains, N.Y. which ranks No. 45, and San Francisco which ranks No. 50. Mercer conducts the survey to help multinational companies and governments determine how much to pay their expatriate employees. The survey includes 144 cities across the world, and measures costs including housing, food, clothing, transportation and entertainment. So, if your company is shipping you off to Tokyo and you're negotiating compensation, you might remind them that a luxury two-bedroom apartment unfurnished might cost you $4,595 a month. And you also might remind them that with coffee running at over $4 a cup, there is some risk you'll be less productive due to loss of caffeine unless you're adequately paid. If you're making a move domestically, and you're interested in finding the place where your dollar will go the farthest, try Winston Salem, N.C., which is the least expensive U.S. city surveyed and ranks No. 119 on a worldwide basis. Heading north, Ottawa will provide you with the most bang for your buck in North America. If you head south to South America, you'll encounter some of the world's least expensive cities due to the lingering effects of the devaluation of the Argentine currency in 2002 and subsequent financial crisis, Mercer said. Asuncion, Paraguay, again ranks as the world's least expensive city, according to the survey. It is closely preceded by Buenos Aires, Montevideo and Caracas. To see Mercer's full list of cities by rank, click on the graphic above. Find this article at: http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/21/pf/...ities/index.htm

	28-06-2005 20:26									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Here's the list.

World's most and least expensive cities
Source: Mercer Human Resource Consulting, 2005 Cost-of-Living Survey
2005

code:

Rank	City
1	Tokyo, Japan
2	Osaka, Japan
3	London, United Kingdom
4	Moscow, Russia
5	Seoul, South Korea
6	Geneva, Switzerland
7	Zurich, Switzerland
8	Copenhagen, Denmark
9	Hong Kong, Hong Kong
10	Oslo, Norway
11	Milan, Italy
12	Paris, France
13	New York City, United States
13	Dublin, Ireland
15	St. Petersburg, Russia
16	Vienna, Austria
17	Rome, Italy
18	Stockholm, Sweden
19	Beijing, China
20	Sydney, Australia
20	Helsinki, Finland
22	Douala, Cameroon
22	Istanbul, Turkey
24	Amsterdam, Netherlands
24	Budapest, Hungary
26	Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire
27	Warsaw, Poland
28	Prague, Czech Republic
29	Taipei, Taiwan
30	Shanghai, China
31	Bratislava, Slovak Republic
32	Düsseldorf, Germany
33	Luxembourg, Luxembourg
34	Singapore, Singapore
34	Frankfurt, Germany
36	Dakar, Senegal
37	Munich, Germany
38	Berlin, Germany
39	Tel Aviv, Israel
40	Glasgow, United Kingdom
41	Athens, Greece
41	Brussels, Belgium
43	Barcelona, Spain
44	Los Angeles, United States
45	White Plains, United States
46	Madrid, Spain
47	Birmingham, United Kingdom
48	Zagreb, Croatia
49	Hamburg, Germany
50	Hanoi, Vietnam
50	San Francisco, United States
52	Chicago, United States
52	Beirut, Lebanon
54	Riga, Latvia
54	Kiev, Ukraine
56	Ho Chi Minh, Vietnam
57	Miami, United States
58	Algiers, Algeria
59	Casablanca, Morocco
60	Tallin, Estonia
61	Lyon, France
61	Honolulu, United States
63	Shenzhen, China
64	Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates
65	Guangzhou, China
66	Lisbon, Portugal
67	Amman, Jordan
68	Melbourne, Australia
69	Auckland, New Zealand
70	Houston, United States
71	Jakarta, Indonesia
72	Kuwait City, Kuwait
73	Dubai, United Arab Emirates
74	San Juan, Puerto Rico
75	Almaty, Kazakhstan
76	Wellington, New Zealand
76	Ljubljana, Slovenia
78	Washington, D.C., United States
79	Boston, United States
80	Morristown, United States
81	Sofia, Bulgaria
82	Toronto, Canada
83	Atlanta, United States
84	Brisbane, Australia
85	Leipzig, Germany
86	Manama, Bahrain
87	Vancouver, Canada
88	Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
89	Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
89	Adelaide, Australia
91	Vilnius, Lithuania
91	Accra, Ghana
93	Perth, Australia
94	Denver, United States
95	Mexico City, Mexico
96	Lagos, Nigeria
97	Cairo, Egypt
98	Calgary, Canada
99	Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
100	Limassol, Cyprus
101	Detroit, United States
102	St. Louis, United States
103	Seattle, United States
103	Bucharest, Romania
105	Kingston, Jamaica
105	Mumbai, India
107	Montreal, Canada
108	Guatemala City, Guatemala
109	Cleveland, United States
110	New Delhi, India
111	Pittsburgh, United States
112	Portland (Ore.), United States
113	Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
114	Panama City, Panama
115	Monterrey, Mexico
116	Johannesburg, South Africa
117	Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
118	Lima, Peru
119	Nairobi, Kenya
119	Winston-Salem, United States
119	São Paulo, Brazil
122	Ottawa, Canada
123	Lusaka, Zambia
124	Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
125	Bangkok, Thailand
126	Tunis, Tunisia
127	Dacca (Dhaka), Bangladesh
128	Santiago, Chile
129	Tehran, Iran
130	Blantyre, Malawi
131	Tianjin, China
132	Colombo, Sri Lanka
133	Bogotá, Colombia
134	Harare, Zimbabwe
135	San José, Costa Rica
136	Karachi, Pakistan
137	Quito, Ecuador
138	Chennai (Madras), India
138	Caracas, Venezuela
140	Montevideo, Uruguay
141	Bangalore, India
142	Buenos Aires, Argentina
143	Manila, Philippines
144	Asunción, Paraguay

	28-06-2005 20:26									#3
	Remove this text

quote: soCalifornians are always *****-ing about how expensive San Francisco

we just betch loudest

	28-06-2005 20:28									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Istanbul's #22? I thought it'd be cheaper - I read it somewhere that you could spend $5 a day there and still have a posh vacation.

Also I'm surprised that Dubai didn't make it higher. From what I've heard, it's a pretty expensive place. I guess not to live but to visit.

	28-06-2005 20:31									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Japher we just betch loudest

Heh probably too many of NoCalifornians being too stoned to do so.

	28-06-2005 20:42									#6
	Put an end to popups!

european countries should be adjusted downward by 5.9% to take into account the euros gain in value against the US dollar (mercer doesnt do PPP)

doing so, and comparing the 2004, you can see that many euro cities had only small increases in cost of living compared to USA (some even had negative increases)

	28-06-2005 23:22									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Heading north, Ottawa will provide you with the most bang for your buck in North America.

Hell yeah!

Actually I'm not too sure what kind of means these people are using to judge how expensive a city is. I know when I lived in Boston public transit, groceries/restaurants were qutie a bit cheaper than what I find here in Ottawa - and those account for large portions of my monthly expenses.

Of course, housing is a lot cheaper so maybe it evens out. Still, I'm curious how they are determining these things.

	28-06-2005 23:27									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Considering some of those places I'm surprised Indianapolis isn't on the list. It ain't that expensive, but it's gotta be more than most of those 3rd world cities...

	28-06-2005 23:27									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

ya . . . methodology would be interesting. I don't know if they consider currency changes ( they probably convert to USD so this one may be covered) or even changes in the tax structure, how health care is paid for etc . . . one would think that all those things factor in as they would all be concerns of employees moving there

	28-06-2005 23:27									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

By the way, I'm renting a 4 bedroom townhouse with a basement and a rec room for $1,215 per month.

Do you guys consider that cheap?

	28-06-2005 23:28									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Considering some of those places I'm surprised Indianapolis isn't on the list.

Are you in Indianapolis?

	28-06-2005 23:29									#12
	Suffering from ads?

quote: By the way, I'm renting a 4 bedroom townhouse with a basement and a rec room for $1,215 per month. Do you guys consider that cheap?

Yes.

	28-06-2005 23:36									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Forget about New York, Chicago, or Denver.

The cheapest state to live in in the Union is still Arkansas.

Y'all better get in quick on this oppurtunity quick.

	28-06-2005 23:36									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Theben Considering some of those places I'm surprised Indianapolis isn't on the list. It ain't that expensive, but it's gotta be more than most of those 3rd world cities...

Simply may not have been surveyed-- I mean the US has how many cities with a million or more people?

Although, Canadian cities were as follows

Toronto 82
vancouver 87
Calgary 98
Montreal 107
Ottawa 122

so they hit most Canadian places ( Edmonton is the only notable exception of larger places).

	28-06-2005 23:39									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn By the way, I'm renting a 4 bedroom townhouse with a basement and a rec room for $1,215 per month. Do you guys consider that cheap?

Calgary Downtown, that would be an incredible deal
Calgary- Nicer burbs, still a good deal
Calgary --Outer burbs or not so nice --yawn

Rural newfoundland-- What a ripoff

	29-06-2005 00:36									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I paid $35 in Zurich for 2 gin and freakin tonics. 10 YEARS ago!

That's like P1800, or 7 days pay for the mason/carpenter that was about to get his engineering degree in the Phils that we hired to build our house.

Europe is so damned spendy!

	29-06-2005 00:38									#17
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Theben Considering some of those places I'm surprised Indianapolis isn't on the list. It ain't that expensive, but it's gotta be more than most of those 3rd world cities...

Very true. I can find you a place to stay in Manila for $5 a day. More if you want a pot to piss in though...

	29-06-2005 00:41									#18
	Suffering from ads?

Düsseldorf above Munich? Unbelievable!

	29-06-2005 02:03									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I went from this:

quote: 13 New York City, United States

to this:

quote: 112 Portland (Ore.), United States

I'm paying about the same I was paying in NY for rent (my share, I mean, not the total). But I'm getting much, much more. I also have a car now, which I couldn't have in NY.

Portland is a lovely city--very liveable, and lacking the huge crowds that drove me nuts in NY.

	29-06-2005 02:08									#20
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Forget about New York, Chicago, or Denver. The cheapest state to live in in the Union is still Arkansas. Y'all better get in quick on this oppurtunity quick.

We don't want all those people coming down here.

If everyone was here than it wouldn't be cheap anymore.

	29-06-2005 02:19									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Forget about New York, Chicago, or Denver. The cheapest state to live in in the Union is still Arkansas. Y'all better get in quick on this oppurtunity quick.

Ever heard of Alabama?

	29-06-2005 03:13									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia european countries should be adjusted downward by 5.9% to take into account the euros gain in value against the US dollar (mercer doesnt do PPP) doing so, and comparing the 2004, you can see that many euro cities had only small increases in cost of living compared to USA (some even had negative increases)

That would be true if europeans spend their money on american stuff, but since most consumer goods are domestic or at least from the euro zone it doesn't make sense. The same goes for raw materials and industrial goods.

	29-06-2005 03:18									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That list is such unbelievable BS. Seoul more expensive than New York except for the real estate bubble prices for a lot of basic stuff are far far far lower here.

	29-06-2005 03:21									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn By the way, I'm renting a 4 bedroom townhouse with a basement and a rec room for $1,215 per month. Do you guys consider that cheap?

Well I live in #3 now, so yeah, that is cheap...

	29-06-2005 03:29									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Gothenburg (Swedens second largest city - my hometown) isn´t even on the list. I think it´s pretty expensive here though... I pay $380 for a small (32 square meters) studio apartment. I live in a rather nice part of the town, but it isn´t much cheaper in the "projects"...

	29-06-2005 03:31									#26
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I live in a two bedroom house, decent size, which costs me £700 a month...

	29-06-2005 03:31									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

i'll be in #6 next year - yay. san diego didnt even make the list, and sf checked in at #50.

	29-06-2005 03:36									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

PH, £700 a month?? Ouch...

	29-06-2005 03:45									#29
	Tired of ads?

That's right! And this isn't an especially expensive area either...

	29-06-2005 03:47									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg Gothenburg (Swedens second largest city - my hometown) isn´t even on the list. I think it´s pretty expensive here though... I pay $380 for a small (32 square meters) studio apartment. I live in a rather nice part of the town, but it isn´t much cheaper in the "projects"...

I guess that there are a reason to the fact that Gothenburg isn't on the list. For $380 you can rent a 12 sqare meter room with shared toilet and kitchen in a Copenhagen suburb. Forget about renting it in central parts - there a 40 sqm "appartment" are for sale at 1 mill dkr ~ 1.2 mill skr ($1 = 7 dkr)