29-06-2005 16:35									#1
	AI Cheat on SPs, Cannot research next tech Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Ever have an SP building while you are still researching the tech for the SP? A common enough occurrance. Ever have the AI building the SP for the tech you are researching? Again, this is common as well. Well have you ever had the AI rush-build that SP just before you could research the tech? Happens all the time, doesn't it?

Well, what if you then back up a couple of turns and set your research to max so that you can complete your research one or two turns earlier? Well, this is where the AI cheats. It will not let you research the new tech no matter what you do. It will short you on your reseach labs so that you do not research the tech thus permitting the AI to build the SP.

Earlier this evening I discovered this cheat by accident. In the first go-round, I noted the AI had two turns to go to complete his SP. I had one more turn to research the tech. But, on the next turn, I did not research the tech and still had one turn to go. The AI had now rushed the minerals on the SP and had 0 to go, meaning the AI would build the SP and there was nothing I could do about it.

So I reloaded the game from the previous save with the AI two turns away and me with one turn to research the tech. I carefully increased the research setting to make sure I had enough to go over. IIRC, the labs needed were 1880, I had about 1650, and was researching around 350 per turn. However, when the next turn came, I had not researched the tech and still had one turn to go. My research points stood at 1750, or some such number.

Well, not to be outdone, I reloaded a game from the turn previous. Here the AI had 13 turns to go to build the SP and I had two turns to go to research the tech. Well, I set my SE settings to +5 efficiency and my research to 100%. Was getting around 550 labs per turn. I was starting at a base of around 1400. I had one turn to go to research the next tech.

Well the next turn, I was sitting at around 1600, not the expected 1900. The AI had 0 minerals to go, not 2 as in times previous.

To make a long story short, no matter how I jiggered the research settings, I could not research the tech before the AI built the SP. The program would always short me on the labs so that I would not research the next tech. I would stay at 1 turns to go at least two turns, and at times three.

This is some cheat.

	29-06-2005 17:00									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Wow, that is a discovery!

I can't believe it's really true.
Never happened to me.

Or maybe I never noticed..

	29-06-2005 22:22									#3
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Wow, that is a discovery! I can't believe it's really true. Never happened to me. Or maybe I never noticed..

Yeah. I've been playing this game since '99 and I've never noticed before either although many here have complained in the past that they have not researched a tech on a turn the computer said they should have researched a tech. In the past, this was at times attributed to some mathematical rollover error. But it may also be true when you are directing research and the computer knows that you are about to research the necessary tech to build an SP it has nearly finished. Then it cheats.

(Another cheat is that the AI's vehicles are almost invulnerable to mind worms. It usually takes two or more to take out an AI vehicle while that same vehicle, in the hands of the human, would go down easy.)

	30-06-2005 02:05									#4
	Remove this text

You're just getting hip to this now? Yes, the AI cheats. Here's a fun one: Find a base where the AI is building a secret project. Wait until the turn before SP completion and send in enough probe teams to sabotage production. Lo and behold, the next turn, the AI will miraculously scrape together 600 minerals to finish it on schedule.

Don't worry tho, the AI NEEDS to cheat, otherwise it's a complete pushover. Just go send some troops over to take the SP away from him.

	30-06-2005 03:34									#5
	Re: AI Cheat on SPs, Cannot research next tech Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ned Ever have an SP building while you are still researching the tech for the SP? A common enough occurrance.

Nope, haven't experienced that - maybe your version is "too old" - that is, later versions/patches fix this.

quote: Ever have the AI building the SP for the tech you are researching? Again, this is common as well. Well have you ever had the AI rush-build that SP just before you could research the tech? Happens all the time, doesn't it?

Ehrm, no - or rather, it is some years ago since I experienced that - usually, I am ahead in research and SP's (I might miss ME but that is no loss since it's one of the more worthless SP's).

	30-06-2005 06:36									#6
	Support Apolyton

I have experienced many strange things when doing one city challenges and trying to get all the SPs on Transcend...not only is it difficult, but the AI is very magical in its ways of getting things done...

	30-06-2005 12:38									#7
	Re: Re: AI Cheat on SPs, Cannot research next tech Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Nope, haven't experienced that - maybe your version is "too old" - that is, later versions/patches fix this. Ehrm, no - or rather, it is some years ago since I experienced that - usually, I am ahead in research and SP's (I might miss ME but that is no loss since it's one of the more worthless SP's).

Er, Blackcat, you have never continued to build an SP that has already been built so that you can switch production to another SP when you get the tech to do so? Frankly, I find that hard to believe.

	30-06-2005 12:41									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, another thing is that the AI never loses minerals except when you use a probe team to destroy the current production. If it fails to build an SP and has 300 minerals unused, it does not lose them when it switches to new production like a human does.

But this cheat, deliberately holding down your research in order to rush build its own SP is something I had not been aware of until now.

	30-06-2005 21:24									#9
	Re: Re: Re: AI Cheat on SPs, Cannot research next tech Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned Er, Blackcat, you have never continued to build an SP that has already been built so that you can switch production to another SP when you get the tech to do so? Frankly, I find that hard to believe.

Nope. I build crawlers. They are just as good, there are no risk of loosing mins if you for some reason don't get a new SP to switch to, and the crawlers can do some good while waiting for a SP to build.

	30-06-2005 21:49									#10
	Re: Re: Re: Re: AI Cheat on SPs, Cannot research next tech Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Nope. I build crawlers. They are just as good, there are no risk of loosing mins if you for some reason don't get a new SP to switch to, and the crawlers can do some good while waiting for a SP to build.

Of course, but what do you do before you get crawlers?

	30-06-2005 21:56									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I think I have discovered the source of the problem: Punishment Spheres. The F2 report does not take their effect into account. It gives you unadjusted data. In more recent experiments, I have found that I consistently produce 50% of the reported labs, which makes sense since I have been running with Punishment Spheres in every base.

Ugh. I have never seen this misreport problem discussed here before.

	30-06-2005 22:23									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=134574

	30-06-2005 22:23									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That's it you ugly punisher!
That's the revenge of the drones!

I wonder what for you use PSs in all your bases. If you want to fight pacifism drones that way, you can build it in one high mineral base and rehome all military to it.
If you're not running FM, there are more effective (meaning the -50% labs as ineffectiveness) and even cheaper ways to deal with drones.

	30-06-2005 23:13									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin That's it you ugly punisher! That's the revenge of the drones! I wonder what for you use PSs in all your bases. If you want to fight pacifism drones that way, you can build it in one high mineral base and rehome all military to it. If you're not running FM, there are more effective (meaning the -50% labs as ineffectiveness) and even cheaper ways to deal with drones.

I've been experimenting with new ways to play the game. One of the things I've done is move the tech for the punishment spheres to one of the earlier techs. Using punishment spheres in your bases allows all sorts of advantages with only one disadvantage, a research hit. One can create a very large empire without bureaucracy drones. One can run FM without any diversion of energy to psych or worry about units being out of you territory. One can pop boom with impunity.

In short, punishment spheres are a source of power almost beyond belief. Further, as you multiply your bases and increase their size without diversion of any psych, you quickly overcome the research deficit problem.

Imagine playing the game with the Telepathic Matrix from beginning? That is what punishment spheres do.

	30-06-2005 23:41									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

as I said you only need one PS to kill pacifism

	01-07-2005 02:08									#16
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AI Cheat on SPs, Cannot research next tech Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ned Of course, but what do you do before you get crawlers?

Formers - they only cah in for half, but that is enough.

	01-07-2005 05:48									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin as I said you only need one PS to kill pacifism

Yeah, but you seem to ignore every other advantage I cited.

	01-07-2005 06:46									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

Ned,

The "Punishment Sphere strategy" seems to be a great idea for a new way to play! I think I'll try it out without modding the tech tree. In that case, Advanced Military Algorithms are needed for Punishment Spheres. I think the beeline looks like this:

Applied Physics (1)
Information Networks (1)
Industrial Base (1)
Polymorphic Software (2)
Doctrine Flexibility (2)
Doctrine Mobility (2)
Adaptive Doctrine (3)
Optical Computers (3)
Advanced Military Algorithms (4)

Not your usual builder line of research!

The Cyborgs appear to be a good faction for this strategy: They start with two of the required techs, they have good research to begin with and their efficiency rating will help to get to a paradigm economy.

Other advantages to using PSs are that you don't have to worry about building any drone control facilities (rec commons) or SPs (Virtual World or Human Genome).

Can't wait to start a new game!

	01-07-2005 09:18									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Do let us know how it goes. I'd probably try it myself once I get home

	01-07-2005 10:56									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ned In short, punishment spheres are a source of power almost beyond belief. Further, as you multiply your bases and increase their size without diversion of any psych, you quickly overcome the research deficit problem.

I am not so sure. The PS may be advantagous if you have at least Hab Complex, Genejack Factory, Tree Farm most likely, and probably other techs.

I also reckon the -50% in research is too hefty a price to pay. It means your unmodified research output has to be 200% of others just to keep abreast (2 x 0.5 = 1). On higher levels where the computer players already have a bonus on you I don't think you can ever catch up.

	01-07-2005 18:41									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That's why you only have one fun sphere base, the one that's supporting all those noodles that would make peacenik drones because you're running FM, right?

	02-07-2005 02:46									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I am not so sure. The PS may be advantagous if you have at least Hab Complex, Genejack Factory, Tree Farm most likely, and probably other techs. I also reckon the -50% in research is too hefty a price to pay. It means your unmodified research output has to be 200% of others just to keep abreast (2 x 0.5 = 1). On higher levels where the computer players already have a bonus on you I don't think you can ever catch up.

True. But if you have to use 20% psych to ward off those drones, PS immediately give you that 20% back. You make up the rest by faster growth and multiplying your bases without regard to b-drones. (Having the PTS helps speed growth, especially with sea bases.) Finally, you don't have to worry about making everything clean and moving them to you one PS base. You can go on the offensive far before researching clean.

But observe just how much more cash you have from running so many base flat out under FM, with no diversion for psych or holos or the like. That is where the power of the PS shows forth.

	02-07-2005 08:17									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Very interesting... but first I'm going to rename Punishment Sphere in Alpha.txt to Total Perspective Vortex.

	02-07-2005 16:15									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Interesting idea for a faction: Free fun sphere in every base (with/without tech?).

	03-07-2005 04:09									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by #endgame Interesting idea for a faction: Free fun sphere in every base (with/without tech?).

I've tried it. Actually, I let the Professor and the Pirate use them all the time, as they always want to use FM and kill themselves with drones. I have found that this works wonders for both factions as AI opponents.

However, I think it best to give them the spheres when they research the tech, which I move up somewhat from AMA. This allows them to research the early techs unencumbered when they really do no need PS's.

	03-07-2005 05:34									#26
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ned In short, punishment spheres are a source of power almost beyond belief. Further, as you multiply your bases and increase their size without diversion of any psych, you quickly overcome the research deficit problem. Imagine playing the game with the Telepathic Matrix from beginning? That is what punishment spheres do.

And here I was destroying all of the Punishment Spheres in all of the Hive cities I conquered in Chaos Theory's Solstice Challenge...


D

	03-07-2005 12:13									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

Shortsighted indeed!

	04-07-2005 12:28									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Punishment Spheres in all of the Hive cities I conquered in Chaos Theory's Solstice Challenge

Aha!