05-07-2005 21:57									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Just like there was a Fascism mod for Civ3, I'm sure there will be plenty of custom leaders for Civ4, including Hitler. Personally, I'd rather not see him.

At least with Stalin, Russians can look back and see something positive in the victory over Germany. He was a monster, but he did manage to achieve something for his nation. It's hard to say that Hitler achieved anything positive at all for Germany.

	05-07-2005 22:08									#62
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quote: Originally posted by sophist At least with Stalin, Russians can look back and see something positive in the victory over Germany. He was a monster, but he did manage to achieve something for his nation. It's hard to say that Hitler achieved anything positive at all for Germany.

Hitler restored Germany's economy after the dreadful depression caused by the outrageous Treaty of Versailles. Most Germans viewed him as a hero, that's why so many people couldn't believe the Holocaust. He was a very successful demagogue, one of the most nefarious too, not to mention completely out of his mind.

	05-07-2005 22:13									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Hitler restored Germany's economy after the dreadful depression caused by the outrageous Treaty of Versailles. Most Germans viewed him as a hero, that's why so many people couldn't believe the Holocaust. He was a very successful demagogue, one of the most nefarious too, not to mention completely out of his mind.

I'm not saying how they viewed him at the time, but how people view him now. I don't think you can say that Germany's economy would not have recovered without Hitler by, say, 1950. I mean, Hitler may have rebuilt Germany's economy in the 1930s, but then he started a war that led basically to the complete destruction of the country and the deaths of millions of Germans. I think the economic cost of that vastly exceeds whatever economic damage would have still remained in 1950 from the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.

	05-07-2005 22:14									#64
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quote: At least with Stalin, Russians can look back and see something positive in the victory over Germany. He was a monster, but he did manage to achieve something for his nation. It's hard to say that Hitler achieved anything positive at all for Germany.

The victory over Germany was in Stalin's time, not thanks to him, not thanks to any skills he had. Besides, I assure you that normal Russians don't view him as a positive person in the least - the ones who do view him as positive are the same nutters that are now urging to kill/get rid of all non-ethnically-Russian people in Russia.

Leaders in Civ should be someone who wouldn't offend people, and of whom people of that nation could be proud. There's a big thread about Hitler at CFC. Germans there said that they want another leader because there are leaders that Germans are proud of.

	05-07-2005 23:05									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Solver quote: At least with Stalin, Russians can look back and see something positive in the victory over Germany. He was a monster, but he did manage to achieve something for his nation. It's hard to say that Hitler achieved anything positive at all for Germany. The victory over Germany was in Stalin's time, not thanks to him, not thanks to any skills he had. Besides, I assure you that normal Russians don't view him as a positive person in the least - the ones who do view him as positive are the same nutters that are now urging to kill/get rid of all non-ethnically-Russian people in Russia. Leaders in Civ should be someone who wouldn't offend people, and of whom people of that nation could be proud. There's a big thread about Hitler at CFC. Germans there said that they want another leader because there are leaders that Germans are proud of.

Besides, Stalin and Hitler agreed back in the 30s to partition Poland between the two of them. Personally, I think that Stalin would have propagated a World War if Hitler hadn't. The only reason he fought on the side of the Allies was because Hitler attacked him. I would not say that Stalinwas better than Hitler in any respect whatsoever.

After Germany was defeated, Patton wanted to move on to Moscow.

	05-07-2005 23:09									#66
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Solver: Thanks for your detailed explanation. I never thought of that. I could see how people from the former Soviet Republics would be offended by his inclusion in the game.

Now that brings up a another question: shouldn't Chinese players be offended by having Mao as a leader of the Chinese?

	05-07-2005 23:12									#67
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He's still 'worshipped' in China.

	05-07-2005 23:16									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon Solver: Thanks for your detailed explanation. I never thought of that. I could see how people from the former Soviet Republics would be offended by his inclusion in the game. Now that brings up a another question: shouldn't Chinese players be offended by having Mao as a leader of the Chinese?

Well, he undoubtedly killed more people than Hitler and Stalin combined.

	06-07-2005 00:26									#69
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What's wrong with a few "evil" leaders ??

At one point people here complain about PCPOS (no terrorism) and here you want more PCPOS (no leaders you can't be proud of).



PCPOS : Politically Correct Piece Of S...

	06-07-2005 00:37									#70
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quote: Originally posted by PJayTycy What's wrong with a few "evil" leaders ?? At one point people here complain about PCPOS (no terrorism) and here you want more PCPOS (no leaders you can't be proud of). PCPOS : Politically Correct Piece Of S...

Want? No, it's not so much that. I think it's just a statement that some people would be offended, thus barring the inclusion of certain leaders (ie. Stalin, Hitler, etc.).

	06-07-2005 00:40									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon Solver: Thanks for your detailed explanation. I never thought of that. I could see how people from the former Soviet Republics would be offended by his inclusion in the game. Now that brings up a another question: shouldn't Chinese players be offended by having Mao as a leader of the Chinese?

Ah yes, Mao is an interesting issue. Surely Civ1 and Civ2 were as unavailable in China as they were in the USSR, but frankly, I'm quite surprised Mao is still in. I suppose that the developers have the same logic as with Stalin 15 years ago - they think that not many Chinese people will get to play the game. In a way, that's true, after all, China has internet censorship, disallowing access to foreign sites, plus most games are banned too, and Civ definitely isn't "politically correct" in the eyes of Chinese censors. That's my best guess.

	06-07-2005 00:44									#72
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It won't stop Chinese to 'purchase' the game en masse.

	06-07-2005 00:49									#73
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Maybe not as en masse as, say, Russians, but yes. Then again, 'purchasers' are never taken into account when developing .

	06-07-2005 01:16									#74
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quote: Originally posted by PJayTycy What's wrong with a few "evil" leaders ?? At one point people here complain about PCPOS (no terrorism) and here you want more PCPOS (no leaders you can't be proud of).

I have no problem with leaders like Stalin or even Hitler being in the game, but I understand that people are very sensitive about these relatively recent evil leaders, so that's enough of a reason if Firaxis decides not to put them in the game. If they think they'll lose sales because of bad press, that is... I can even understand not putting in terrorism, though I don't agree with it. You can have ethnic cleansing, city bombarding, and forced starvation, but no terrorism. Oh, but I'm getting off topic.

Anyway, I don't think it's because they're "evil" leaders, but because they're recent evil leaders who killed lots of people. You don't hear people objecting to Genghis Khan do you?

	06-07-2005 01:37									#75
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Yes of course, the reason is that these leaders are recent. There are many people now who not only hate those leaders, but who have actually suffered from them. For instance, there are many in Russia and Eastern Europe who lost close relatives on the front lines of WW2, and there are also many people who lost family members in Siberia camps, etc.

	06-07-2005 01:43									#76
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Or Julius Caesar, who killed about a million Gauls and enslaved about the same number. Or Peter the Great's brutality in putting down rebellions (just read Massie's excellent bio). Good point on recentness. So, what's the half-life on evil? Are there any evil leaders from the 1500s - 1800s that were evil and are considered for inclusion?

	06-07-2005 01:49									#77
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Napoleon? Not quite in the same league maybe, but he's a bloody conqueror too, after all.

The "half-life on evil" is hard to define, a good indication is simply whether there are people who would get offended. Obviously, virtually no one is going to be offended by Napoleon now, 200 years after him. It takes a while for people to forget recent conflicts, after all. I don't think that WW2 will stop being a sensitive subject soon. There are many people still alive who fought in WW2, not to mention, of course, their children - so there are thousands of people who lost their fathers in WW2 now. I think it can well take another 2 generations for WW2 and its leaders no longer to be such a sensitive subject.

	06-07-2005 02:08									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Maybe not as en masse as, say, Russians, but yes. Then again, 'purchasers' are never taken into account when developing .

That's actually an interesting point... it shows that there's another, hidden disadvantage to pirating - your tastes are not taken into account when games are developed. Even if pirating doesn't prevent the release of games, that effect would persist...

	06-07-2005 02:09									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Napoleon? Not quite in the same league maybe, but he's a bloody conqueror too, after all.

But he was a really f'in awesome/brilliant bloody conqueror.

	06-07-2005 02:24									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker But he was a really f'in awesome/brilliant bloody conqueror.

...And the British hated him so much for the rest of the 19th Century that they refused to use him as a leaderpiece in their
"Civilization Chess" game.

Ok, so that might be a bit farfetched. But Siegfried Meier, creator of the popular 19th Century Prussian Boardgame "Siegfried Meiers Zivilisation," certainly refused to use Napoleon.

Ok, ok. I'll stop.

	06-07-2005 02:34									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's actually an interesting point... it shows that there's another, hidden disadvantage to pirating - your tastes are not taken into account when games are developed. Even if pirating doesn't prevent the release of games, that effect would persist...

Woot... that means offensive Chinese stereotypes with minimal backlash.

	06-07-2005 02:34									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's actually an interesting point... it shows that there's another, hidden disadvantage to pirating - your tastes are not taken into account when games are developed. Even if pirating doesn't prevent the release of games, that effect would persist...

Tastes of pirates are taken into account because they can post on boards just as normal purchasers do. However, tastes of players in regions where most games are pirated are not taken in account, such as the thought of Russian and Chinese players, where over 90% of the games played are pirated. So the developers don't usually think about the requirements/interests of those markets. Especially Chinese, where there is virtually no market, as such games are actually illegal.

So I can see why no one has many doubts about Mao if Civ is going to be banned in China, and no one in the entire country then would legally own it.

	06-07-2005 02:54									#83
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True. I guess the disadvantage is only to entire nations...

	06-07-2005 05:30									#84
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You know, with all this discussion, I forgot what the original topic of this thread was.

I voted for Egypt, though Greece, Rome, and Russia are also good candidates for a second leader. I just wouldn't want to see Hatshepsut be the only choice for Egypt.

	06-07-2005 06:16									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon You know, with all this discussion, I forgot what the original topic of this thread was. I voted for Egypt, though Greece, Rome, and Russia are also good candidates for a second leader. I just wouldn't want to see Hatshepsut be the only choice for Egypt.

No kidding. Those are the four nations I think are most likely to get a second leader as well.

	06-07-2005 08:54									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon You know, with all this discussion, I forgot what the original topic of this thread was.

Wait, this thread had a original topic?

I agree with your pics for countries that need 2nd leaders. I hope we get more, but I'll take Egypt, Rome, Greece, and Russia in addition to those we already know.

	06-07-2005 22:09									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Wait, this thread had a original topic? I agree with your pics for countries that need 2nd leaders. I hope we get more, but I'll take Egypt, Rome, Greece, and Russia in addition to those we already know.

Well, if there are only 26 leaders, that means that only two of those will get extra leaders. My preference is Egypt and Russia, but I wouldn't mind Greece and Rome.

	06-07-2005 23:37									#88
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I would love to see every civilization get two leaders, but I suppose that will have to wait until the modding.

I suppose the best choices would be Egypt and Rome, with Egypt's second leader most likely be Ramses, and Rome's to be Hadrian, perhaps?

	07-07-2005 00:09									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes I would love to see every civilization get two leaders, but I suppose that will have to wait until the modding. I suppose the best choices would be Egypt and Rome, with Egypt's second leader most likely be Ramses, and Rome's to be Hadrian, perhaps?

I agree on Ramses. As for Rome, there's a whole bunch of good choices.

Augustus - Not sure how different from Julius his in-game behavior would be. Same with Tiberius and Claudius.

Caligula, Nero - Absolutely psychotic. Rome would be completely unpredictable.

Trajan, Hadrian, Vespasian - Constructive, but also militant.

Marcus Aurelius - extremely well-rounded. All around good emperor.

Then again, I think Russia has more diversity in behavior, and is more likely to haver Ivan the Terrible - psychotic, and Peter or Catherine - constructive.

	07-07-2005 00:55									#90
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Why don't they just have two leaders for all the civs? The ones people don't know might inspire them to google them and learn something...