04-07-2005 06:52									#1
	Second Leader in a Civ Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Which Civ 4 civ should have a second leader? Rather, which one has the best chance?

Keep in mind that we already know of 6 that do:

China (Qin Shi Huang-di, Mao Tse-tung)
America (George Washington, Franklin D. Roosevelt)
Mongolia (Genghis Khan, Kublai Khan)
France (Louis XIV, Napoleon Bonaparte)
India (Ashoka, Mohandas Gandhi)
England (Elizabeth I, Victoria)

And that two civs have already been announced as only having one leader:

Germany (Otto von Bismarck)
Arabia (Saladin)

(You know, it may even be safe to say that Mali will only have one leader. After all, the country barely has a peronality on the world scene as it is, let alone considering the difficulty of finding two. My bet is on Mansa Musa there).

	04-07-2005 07:00									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Personally, my vote goes to Russia. Since they have so many options for leaders, I think they have a lot of chances for two leaders. The other civ I think will have two leaders is Egypt, with Ramses as the second leader.

Then Firaxis will go and prove me wrong by making Mali have four leaders or something!

	04-07-2005 07:06									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I hope that eventually all will have two leaders, perhaps as downloadable content. Not holding my breath, though.

	04-07-2005 07:11									#4
	Tired of ads?

Two people voted so far (including me... ).

Alexander and Pericles. Greece, of course.

	04-07-2005 07:16									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

i voteud for Babilon but my 2dn vote woud go to da Incas cuz their so cool and they both must be in this game or i'l just die!!!!!!

	04-07-2005 07:19									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by ZabrakMaul i voteud for Babilon but my 2dn vote woud go to da Incas cuz their so cool and they both must be in this game or i'l just die!!!!!!

Um, yeah.

Personally, I think that Babylon will be in and that the Incas are going to be dropped because having the Aztecs makes them more redundant.

It's Mesopotamia vs. Mesoamerica.

	04-07-2005 07:20									#7
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I hope that eventually all will have two leaders, perhaps as downloadable content. Not holding my breath, though.

I hope so too, but kind of doubt it. Maybe in the fifth expansion pack or something.

	04-07-2005 07:26									#8
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Um, yeah. Personally, I think that Babylon will be in and that the Incas are going to be dropped because having the Aztecs makes them more redundant. It's Mesopotamia vs. Mesoamerica.

YER A JERK I THINK THEL BOTH BE AND THOSE STUPID GREEKS I MEEN geeks U LIKE SO MUCH THEYL BE DROPED INSTED!

	04-07-2005 07:29									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by ZabrakMaul YER A JERK I THINK THEL BOTH BE AND THOSE STUPID GREEKS I MEEN geeks U LIKE SO MUCH THEYL BE DROPED INSTED!

DL?

	04-07-2005 07:30									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Aro DL?

No kidding.

	04-07-2005 16:34									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Guess the banning rod was used.

But on-topic, I choose the Egyptians. They have the longest known history, and it always irked me that a female pharaoh was choosen for the civ. A male one for a change would be nice.

	04-07-2005 16:46									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Guess the banning rod was used. But on-topic, I choose the Egyptians. They have the longest known history, and it always irked me that a female pharaoh was choosen for the civ. A male one for a change would be nice.

Given the lengths that lesser male pharaohs went to to obliterate the memory of Hatshepsut, I'd say the use of a female pharaoh was welcome. Cleopatra also gets a bad press- she managed to survive Ptolemaic infighting, was the first of her dynasty to learn the language of the Egyptians, spoke six or seven languages, and managed to win the alliance or friendship of both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony.

I don't think she did that just by being the equivalent of an Hellenic Pamela Anderson.

	04-07-2005 16:53									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

My only point is that a male pharoh as second leader next to a female one would be welcome. Do I dare say Toetankamon? (sorry for the spelling)

	04-07-2005 18:06									#14
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder My only point is that a male pharoh as second leader next to a female one would be welcome. Do I dare say Toetankamon? (sorry for the spelling)

Um.

Not as good a choice as Rameses II or Thutmose III.

	04-07-2005 18:58									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: ...and managed to win the alliance or friendship of both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony.

I'd say

Remarkable woman no less. It is rather interesting to speculate what would have happened had she and Antony won at Actium, or had Octavian possessed less of a spine. For a few years there it looked like Antony wanted to split the empire and install his own sons by Cleopatra as a new dynasty.

I digress. My vote was for Russia, whose two leaders should be Ivan IV Grozny and Peter I. There is variance between the two's style of leadership and emphasis, plus none of the sticky PC issues Firaxis likes to avoid that choosing Stalin or Lenin would entail.

	04-07-2005 19:14									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke I digress. My vote was for Russia, whose two leaders should be Ivan IV Grozny and Peter I. There is variance between the two's style of leadership and emphasis, plus none of the sticky PC issues Firaxis likes to avoid that choosing Stalin or Lenin would entail.

I concur there. Ivan the Terrible would be ruthless, manipulative and warlike, Peter the Great would be constructive, magnanimous, and hyperactive.

	04-07-2005 19:30									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke I'd say Remarkable woman no less. It is rather interesting to speculate what would have happened had she and Antony won at Actium, or had Octavian possessed less of a spine. For a few years there it looked like Antony wanted to split the empire and install his own sons by Cleopatra as a new dynasty.

Part of Greg Bear's 'Eon' novel series is set in an alternate Ptolemaic Egypt, and Susan Shwartz has set a novel series in an alternate Ptolemaic-Byzantine world where Cleopatra and Antony ruled from a new capital in Byzantium I seem to recall. Though quite why they'd leave Alexandria...

And there's an interesting essay in one of the 'What If' anthologies about how Christianity is adopted by the victorious Hellenic rulers of a war with Rome, and loses its patriarchal aspects by being identified with strong powerful female pharoah-popes.

	04-07-2005 19:58									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Russia with Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great would be good, though that leaves Catherine the Great out in the cold.

Rome deserves a double. Augustus Caesar should be there instead of Julius Caesar, and then maybe Marcus Aurelius.

	04-07-2005 19:59									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Alexander and Pericles for Greece

	04-07-2005 20:06									#20
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Not as good a choice as Rameses II or Thutmose III.

Yes, Ramses is another familiar name. Though I don't have a clue why. Perhaps something to do this evening, checking the merits of the pharaoh's.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Alexander and Pericles for Greece

I would put Lycurgus opposite Pericles any time.
And why not instead of Alexander, Agamemnon?

	04-07-2005 20:22									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I never liked having Catherine the Great as Russia's leader, seeing as how she was a German princess who seized control by having her halfwit husband Tsar Peter III murdered. (I know it's not proved, but it might as well be.)

Ramses II, the Great, is an obvious choice for a male Egyptian pharaoh. He built the great monument at Abu Simbel, fought the Hittites at Kadesh, and may have been the Pharaoh of the Exodus of the Israelites, though recent theories favor hsi son, Merneptah.

Pericles is a good choice for a Greek ruler, though Alexander will always win out over the others. He may have been a Macedonian, but he spread Hellenism as far as India.

	04-07-2005 20:35									#22
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder I would put Lycurgus opposite Pericles any time. And why not instead of Alexander, Agamemnon?

Because Alexander is awesome

	04-07-2005 20:36									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by sophist Russia with Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great would be good, though that leaves Catherine the Great out in the cold. Rome deserves a double. Augustus Caesar should be there instead of Julius Caesar, and then maybe Marcus Aurelius.

Yeah. It'd be cool to have more leaders with the "Philisophical" trait.

	04-07-2005 21:40									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yeah. It'd be cool to have more leaders with the "Philisophical" trait.

In addition to the militaristic conquering tyrants, of course.

	04-07-2005 22:10									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder ................ I would put Lycurgus opposite Pericles any time. ............................

Lycurgo was a legendary person, not a real one... Talking about legendary people, his grand-grandpa Heracles (or even Agamemnon) would be a better leader. Not to mention Odysseus...

	04-07-2005 22:35									#26
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Aro Lycurgo was a legendary person, not a real one... Talking about legendary people, his grand-grandpa Heracles (or even Agamemnon) would be a better leader. Not to mention Odysseus...

Heck, Alexander the Great is legendary. Of course, he's also historical.

As for the others, no one can prove the actual existence of Lycurgos, Achilles, Agamemnon, Heracles, Odysseus, Theseus or any of the others. Whereas Pericles and Alexander are actual historcial figures.

So instead of the list of legends and myths, you might try people like Drakon, Kleisthenes, Themistokles, Brasidas, or Leonidas.

	04-07-2005 22:40									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Spain, in my humble opinion should have 2 leaders. Starting with the obvious, Firaxis will have chosen Isabella for the first. But then, there is a lot of great leaders that followed : Carlos 5 (Charlesquint), The Cid, Franco and Phillip 2 (besides the fact that he managed to lose a war against England with the great Armada).

	04-07-2005 23:04									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Niptium Spain, in my humble opinion should have 2 leaders. Starting with the obvious, Firaxis will have chosen Isabella for the first. But then, there is a lot of great leaders that followed : Carlos 5 (Charlesquint), The Cid, Franco and Phillip 2 (besides the fact that he managed to lose a war against England with the great Armada).

Trouble is, Firaxis already put Charles V as the leader of the Austrians in the unused Civ in Civ3. That would be the first time a leader of one civ was used for another.

I know he was both King of Spain and Holy Roman Emperor, but ...

	04-07-2005 23:08									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Aro Lycurgo was a legendary person, not a real one... Talking about legendary people, his grand-grandpa Heracles (or even Agamemnon) would be a better leader. Not to mention Odysseus...

On every mythical 'person' is a core of truth. But after 2-3000 years we can only work with the info that has reached us.

Same can be said about the founding of Rome...

	04-07-2005 23:22									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder On every mythical 'person' is a core of truth. But after 2-3000 years we can only work with the info that has reached us. Same can be said about the founding of Rome...

About most mythical figures. I can only hope that Zeus wasn't real...

As for the founding of Rome, do you really think Aeneas of Troy founded the city? Everyone claimed their great founder came from Troy, even the British -- Brutus of Troy!