04-07-2005 19:32									#1
	Need help with a monarch level game Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm on track 4 of the 6 difficulty levels. First time playing it.

Prefer warmongering with the largest map possible.

Basic Civ 3 . .. just uploaded the patch for this game and noticed cavalry don't always get to retreat.

DESTROYED CIVS: Americans, Iroqouis, English

VERY BEAT UP BY ME: Babylonians

AHEAD OF ME BY ONE OR TWO TECHS BUT NOT ABLE TO MATCH ME ON THE FIELD: Zulu & Persians

SAME FORCE AS ME AND 7-10 TECHS AHEAD OF ME AND FURTHEST AWAY: Germany

When at peace I can get to about 300 or 400 GP per turn. I typically have luxuries from 0 to 20%. Try to put all my time into money and end up buying techs or just producing more units to beat civs up to give me techs.

Here's the problem: Germany has got a big lead on me and I'm at infantry and artillery. I know he's close to gettting tanks and I need to hurry up and match him even though he's really far away. He's also going to have better ships than the ironclads soon, I suspect as well.

Germany and I have a military alliance against the Zulus but he's furious with me for a past war/razing cities of other civs (I rarely keep them b/c it's too much work as it flips back and forth . .. only do it if there's a wonder inside).

Over time I can gradually wear down the Persians and Zulus with no problem. They're close and I hold/control over half the globe.

My main concern is Germany as I know they're going to be the last contender for world domination.

How do I go about beating them?

I keep trying to buy tech but even with 1800 GP he won't give me sci method, refining or steel. I know he has more beyond that b/c I saw marines used against the Zulu.

I imagine his tone of furious might have something to do with it.

Stealing tech is 2500 GP safe; 3500 GP moderate and 5000 GP safe. Seems like it would only take longer this way and risk war with Germany when I can't match their tech.

MY STRATEGY: pummel the Zulu and Persians to get more territory and get a few techs from them during peace talks. Put more into research b/c I can get a tech about every 7-10 turns and still have some positive cashflow.

Still not enough. I'm figuring I might have to improve relations with Germany and then I can buy techs for less? True?

Any help appreciated.

StoryTeller

	04-07-2005 20:01									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh, if someone can tell me how, I can submit a pic of the map of the game and anything else needed.

Thanks,

StoryTeller

	05-07-2005 00:38									#3
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To post a screen or a save, you use the "post Reply" button. Then enter some text and scroll down to the "browse" button.

Then you use it like windows and browse to the file that is the pix or save. Then use the "submit reply" to post it.

Saves and pix have to less than 500K. If you manually save that is normally fine, but a huge map could be too large and then you have to use the upload function or maybe zip it.

	05-07-2005 01:01									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

They changed the retreat with a patch a long time ago to only give a chance to retreat more or less based on the vet/elite.

Once they are at one HP they have a chance to retreat, unless the other has the same movement or is at 1 HP as well. In that case no retreat is allowed.

Monarch is a level that if you have a decent start and build and expand well you should be able to at least match the AI. It can be a problem if one civ takes over its contient and you do not take over yours. This civ is a KAI (killer AI) and can be a real pain to take down. It cannot take you down as the AI is poor at invasions.

I do not use steals unless at Deity or Sid, with a few thefts at DG in some games. DG and Sid do not exist in vanilla civ.

So the good news is that bombers are not lethal in C3 or PTW, only C3C. So you only need to get a few armies build and load one or two with infantry or Mechs Inf.

Build up transports to take over as many armies as you can muster. Calv armies can still be useful, but cannot attack tanks or MI's or even infantry in metros. They can kill rifles and damaged units. They can pillage resources and luxs.

Go into mobilization if you need to in order to get up a the forces. First take all of the land mass you are on and then invade.

Use kill zones if you can set them up. Have lots of arties for home defense and then for the invasion.

You can either land a stack of armies and run around and pillage the crap out of them before going for the take down or just land all on a hill.

Cut all the roads to the spot with bombers and have lots of defensive units/armies. One settler to found a town and rush either a wall or a barracks. Oh wait this is vanilla so make the wall first.

After you ride out the counter attack start to raze cities. By then you should have some settlers over to found new towns. If you know the Germans have been hurt enough, you can use combat settlers. That is you roll one up with the advancing units and bring it into the captured town. The abandon the town and found a yours. This lets you use their roads/rails to move on to the next target.

	05-07-2005 08:37									#5
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If I were you, I'd save up about 1500 GPs solely to upgrade all your galleons to transports (build about 20-25 galleons at minimum)....

Next, go for marines, and make sure to have around 8000-10000 GP...as soon as you can build marines, order all your bases to switch production to marines, then hurry them all (or as many as you can)...quickly move them all into transports...about 3-4 per transport...remember, it is better to have 2 transports each with 3 marines than it is to have one transport with 6 marines, as it allows more flexibility and minimizes losses if your boats are attacked...

Now, each transport should also have 2 infantry...

So, you have 4 marines, 2 infantry per transport...

Now, here is the tricky part...

Assign atleast 10 marines, or about 3 transports, for each coastal city of the Germans...for cities that are really crappy you probably could do with 5 or 6 marines...

Position the boats just outside of the culture borders of the germans, but close enough so that the transport could move in to the city in one turn...

You won't need any other boats, as even if the Germans attack your transports, if you have enough, they can't destroy them all....

Now, as you are positioning your transports, use the rest of your stockpiled gold to hurry helicopters on all of the bases bordering the Germans, at least 20...

Meanwhile, make sure to be drafting all your bases for 2 turns...if you are pressed on happiness, just draft once for each base...move all your infantry to the border bases with the helicopters...

Now, switch all bases productions to tanks...you shouldn't need to hurry them if you have decent industry...hopefully, you can have a few tanks in at least 10 turns....

Once you have 8-10 tanks on your border, attack the germans...hit them with the helicopters and transports all on the same turn...

First, attack with the transports and marines...even if you don't take the city, as long as you do decent damage, that's all that matters...use the infantry on your transports as garrisons...raze the cities if you don't think you can handle a culture flip...

Second, drop all the infantry on key spots...resources such as luxeries and strategic would be nice, but any square that is productive or has a key railroad will do...

The point is, your infantry, if dropped on hills and mountains, will be a pain to kill...essentially your infantry will have defenses of 15 on hills...even with tanks, they will be hard to route...

Destroy as many improvements as you can...if the Germans attack your infantry, that's a good thing, as it hurts their tanks and takes units out of bases...if you have enough tanks on your own, take those bases...

If the Germans don't attack, that's good too, just keep your infantry moving and razing the countryside...stick to the hills and mountains...

A short list of procedures is below...

	05-07-2005 08:48									#6
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Hey Commy,

Excellent advice.

Any input for getting tech ASAP? I think Germany has a lead on me by 7-12 techs.



Thanks,

StoryTeller

	05-07-2005 09:04									#7
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1. Produce 50 Galleons...use these to later upgrade to transports...

Order all workers to start building fortresses along the German border...

Have all cities produce infantry, nothing else...

Go into mobolization mode...

2. Research marines and helicopters as fast as you can...forget about modern techs...this will take a while, probably about 40 turns, but that's okay...

While researching these techs, continue building your infantry...once you have 2 infantry per base (4 for border cities), 2 for each fortress, and atleast 100 extra, start building tanks...

Once you can build transports, upgrade your 50 Galleons...

3. Oncey you can build marines, build 4 for each transport, about 200...use any money you have to hurry these...

Start loading the marines onto transports, 4 for each transport...also move 2 infantry onto each transport...

4. Once you can build helicopters, build 30 of them...make sure to have atleast 20 tanks before doing this...once you are done with the helicopters, draft every single city twice...

Now, fortify all your cities with the drafted infantry, and move all the other infantry onto the helicopters...

While doing all this, pair two transports to each German coastal base...extras use to support heavy resistance or larger cities, if you don't have enough, try to attack cities that are on the german mainland, but as far from you as possible...have the transports right on the edge of German territory, within 6 squares, but not within 1 square of the german border...this way, they can't see your boats and won't know about them...

5. If you're boats are ready, along with your helicopters, you are ready to attack...stay in mobility mode, and switch all your gold to either economy or happiness for the next 10 turns...

Attack with the marines and helicopters all on the same turn...first, attack the biggest coastal cities with marines, using the infantry as temporary garrisons...if any city can't be taken by marines on this turn, that is okay...as long as you are doing heavy damage and destroying units, it doesn't matter...

As the larger coastal cities fall, attack the smaller ones...you can use some of your transports paired to small cities to attack larger ones, but your main objective is to take German cities...the more cities you take, the less the Germans can get from drafting...

Second, drop all your infantry (that aren't drafted) on the helicopters just behind the first line of bases...try to drop on hills and mountains or squares with luxeries and strategic resources...try not to drop on plains or grasslands, you need the defensive bonuses from hills...

Make sure to have atleast 2 infantry in a square, never just one...

Third, move any extra infantry you can spare into all those fortresses...if you have any artillery, move those in as well...if you think your fortresses can hold, move your tanks into them as well...

All this should be done on the same turn...

6. Use any marines left to attack coastal cities that haven't fallen yet...if you think a city won't flip, garrison it with damaged marines and with infantry...

Move all your transports back to your mainland, so that if the German coast falls, you still have your boats...

Now, most likely, your infantry have been attacked by german tanks...most of them are probably destroyed, but that's okay...use any infantry left to pillage the countryside...first, take out resources that the Germans don't have 2 of...so for example, if the Germans only have one source of oil, pillage it first...second, pillage squares with mines, as this will kill the industry and prevent a second wave of tanks and garrisons...third, any square with a railroad or a good food source will do...

Now, use all the tanks you have, and advance them into the german territory, attacking any tanks outside of bases, but more importantly, take any city you can...as soon as a city falls, move infantry into it...advance all your infantry in the fortresses in a single line, trying to prevent any holes that tanks might try and go through...this is risky, but it will most likely win the war...

7. Pillage the land with all your crappy infantry, damaged or drafted...use the better infantry as garrisons...try to protect your tanks, and keep putting pressure on cities...move your marines on to cities that are small and have few units...

Draft your cities to death, and keep pumping infantry into your helicopters, and dropping them inside german territory...

	05-07-2005 09:10									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The strategy above has never failed me...in fact, one game I was playing Russia and still doing Fuedalism (in the industrial age) as 90% of my land was tundra...it was horrible...

I had just gotten rocketry, and other civs were already building their spaceship...both the manhattan project and UN had been built...the most powerful civilization had all the techs in the game, had the best military, armed with mech infantry, modern armors, and lots of bombers...

While it killed me to do it, I managed to get around 300 infantry, marines, and paratroopers and with a few transports and helicopters, I took out the most powerful civ in just a few turns...completely wiped them out...

A lot of it was pure luck, and a good deal of my success was do to the fact the AI wasn't very smart...but still...

	05-07-2005 09:17									#9
	Got spare money?

As for catching up in technology...

If you have a good economy, scrap all your temples and cathedrals and colluseums...also, scrap any harbors you have in cities that aren't working coast and sea squares...

Don't scrap marketplaces and libraries, but if any universities or banks are in cities that don't have high economic or research output, scrap those...

Scrap any power plants and factories, as these are very expensive...

Now, get as much gold as you can per turn from other civs...if you have to sell any techs or trade resources, do it...set happiness to no more than 20%, then research as high as you can...meanwhile, get espionage and build the intellligence center, and use spies...from my experience, failed spy missions have never resulted in war, but that doens't mean it won't happen...

Go for the safe tech steal, but wait until the tech you are stealing is something like motorized transport or combustion or mass production...this will give your now wrecked economy some time to stabalize...

For the most part, be creative with trading with the AI...

	05-07-2005 09:20									#10
	Got spare money?

50 galleons, dang. I take down Sid AI's with a lot less than that and they have hundreds of units. This is Monarch.

6 time 50 is 300 units. No need for marines in that case. Found a town on a hill, cut the roads. Rush a wall and then a barracks.

If they even attack that large of a stack, it will thin then out very nicely.

I never built a helo in CivIII, not even for the fun of it. Do you have the MA up? Rush some armies instead. Fill them with your best defender and do what I mentioned. They will be toast. You will generatoe more leaders to make offensive armies and roll.

I used similar methods to rip Sid civs with more than a 1000 units. stacks of 140 or more on all tiles. They just go up in smoke.

If you use armies, make the barracks first. Full healing of armies is more important than wall bonus.

	08-07-2005 22:17									#11
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Hey Commy,

Sounds like a great strategy.

One challenge: I'm about 10 turns from getting refining, so, I won't have marines for another 50 turns unless I can get it faster.

Seems like the best thing is to pump in money b/c they seem to be willing to sell for 1500-2500GP per tech. That's faster than waiting the usual 15-20 turns which is my level of advancement (i.e. I'm a warmongering monarch even though I have 1/3 control of the land mass).

Any other ideas appreciated.

StoryTeller

	08-07-2005 22:29									#12
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Marines is an optional tech and best to skip it, unless you have no choice, but to use them.

Giving large chunks of cash to the AI is not good for you, better to spend it stealing than to put it in their hands.

	09-07-2005 21:25									#13
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You could take some really large cities that have a lot of food, and switch everyone in it to a scientist for about 10 turns...make sure it has the food resources to grow back up quickly....

	10-07-2005 14:35									#14
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I'll try that out and see how it works.

Thanks.

	10-07-2005 18:52									#15
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sorry v,
forget about the armies. this is vanilla.
no combat bonii
no healing in enemy territory
no fast healing
no blitz ability

my knee jerk reaction is to start with building up your arty defense. then i realised. i don't even know if this is pangie or archie.

don't know if leader farming will do any good. might let you rush theory of evolution, but that'd require scientific method.

anyhoo, v's wrong, commy's nuts - and don't buy tech from the germans, for sid's sake!

how about a piccy?

	10-07-2005 20:13									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Speak English, Leb.

	10-07-2005 23:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by lebensraum sorry v, forget about the armies. this is vanilla. no combat bonii no healing in enemy territory no fast healing no blitz ability my knee jerk reaction is to start with building up your arty defense. then i realised. i don't even know if this is pangie or archie. don't know if leader farming will do any good. might let you rush theory of evolution, but that'd require scientific method. anyhoo, v's wrong, commy's nuts - and don't buy tech from the germans, for sid's sake! how about a piccy?

Yeah no full healing for armies in Civ3 (vanilla), but other units do get full healing. Armies are still quite strong even in Civ3 or PTW.

You won't be in enemy land as you are founding a town, but the lack of fast healing will slow down the invasion, but not much.

These do not change anything I said, only makes the armies less powerful, not powerless.

I made the point that buying tech is a mistake, so I do not see where I am wrong on anything. Now if you want to make a case that there is a better way, then make one.

Armies do not get free pillaging in Civ3, but they still can pillage quite nicely and will probably be immune from attack, except by bombers.

Any other means of invading will require a lot more units and a lot more transports of whatever flavor you have. It will take more losses and need to be replaced.

	11-07-2005 00:41									#18
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@ storyteller s.j.
conquests introduced a whole bunch of new powers for armies. these include
- armies heal in foreign territory (great for pillaging resources far from home)
- armies in a city with a barracks heal in one turn
- armies can attack multiple times in one turn (blitz)
- combat values are greatly increased for units in an army
- the ai is lousy at dealing with armies
this means that in conquests armies are huge, arguably too powerful.

in vanilla, armies are basically a waste of time.

- it takes a long time for an army to heal. if you keep your units separate, they can move independently as soon as any given unit is healed. if you load them into an army, you have to wait for the whole army to recover.
- an army can only attack once per turn, so instead of three tanks each being able to attack on a given turn, if you load those tanks into an army, you lose the extra attacks.
- it costs 400 shields to build an army. that's a lot of production for very limited benefit.

i don't know anything about the topology of the map. so i can't say what sort of tactics you should use. there's no point pumping out loads of transports if you can just build a railroad straight into german territory.

it'd help a lot to have a screenshot. just fire up civ. press 'print screen' and paste it into 'paint' or similar. make sure to save as .jpeg
then when you 'post reply' - hit the 'img' button and type in "c:\my pictures\screenshot.jpg" or whatever you called it.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I do not see where I am wrong on anything.

oh, and don't buy tech from the germans!

	14-07-2005 18:35									#19
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Conquests sounds kewl but I don't have it.

Back to the game . ..

QUESTION: the Germans just got tanks but I think my border cities can hold them for a while. I have artillery that can weaken them big time and then attack with cavalry or infantry. Crude, I know, but I'm 4 turns away from refining.

Anyway, if I save up enough money to steal a tech from the Germans, do I get my choice? Meaning can I steal mobile warfare or is there some chain where I have to steal previous techs.

Each tech looks to be about 5000 for a very probable steal and I'm only getting 300 GP per turn if I don't do any science or luxuries. OUCH. lol

And, even though I have a ton of luxuries, everyone is furious b/c of broken treaties, heh, so it looks like they won't give me a good deal for a while.

I really need to do something to catch up b/c I don't have marines yet and I'm stagnating with tech. I can pillage german territories, which I'm doing now with infantry conscripts (i.e. really fast to produce and pump out b/c it takes turns to get them over to the Germans, like 3-4 turns).

And, I know it will get worse when they get better ships and the like and drown my navy of ironclads, frigates and galleons.

If a map copy is a must, let me know and I'll post.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

StoryTeller

	14-07-2005 18:39									#20
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BTW, let me give you an idea of units.

I have TONS and TONS of infantry and a fair number of cavalry, mostly elite. Also have about 40 to 65 artillery units all over.

So, I think I can hold but over time the Germans are going to run me down even if I have a lot of infantry.

A lot depends on if I can steal the desired tech or if I need to go through a chain or branch (i.e. if I have iron making and I want to steal chivalry or metallurgy can I do so even though I passed up several techs along the branch?).

Thanks,

StoryTeller

	14-07-2005 22:25									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A steal will pop up their tech tree and the ones in blue are the ones they know and you do not. You can select any of them.

A screen shot is not all that useful at this stage, a save would be better.

You are correct that you need to do some damage to them and pillaging is one way. Razing cities is better yet. If you can get an army up make it with calvs so it can cover ground faster and use it to pillage tiles. Use large stacks of inf and arties to go to towns and raze them. Bring one or two calvs with this stack. They can pillage the tile and still move on with the stack.

They can capture any workers left out, probably none, but you hate to miss out if they are some. Maybe even a few more to kill any units that you find damaged.

	14-07-2005 22:41									#22
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Armies can't pillage in the basic game, from what I can see, but units within can.

Am I right in what you seem to be implying? A stack, even if weak conscripted infantry, will be avoided by the
tanks?

I asked about tech b/c even though Bismarck has tanks I can only trade for steel, sci method and refining. I'd hate to save up 5000 over the next several turns and find out I have to pick one of those three instead of mobile warfare.

If the stack of infantry and conscripts won't be attacked by tanks, that's exactly what I'll do.

BTW, when you keep breaking treaties, the patch shows less concessions (i.e. patch as in the normal ones here b/c I just added them after playing the boxed set original). Babylon, for instance, had 15 cities. I've destroyed or taken 14 of them and while they'll give me all their gold and even their smaller cities, they won't give me any tech.

Not sure what's up with that logic but oooookay.

StoryTeller

	15-07-2005 00:44									#23
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I know that only C3C gets the free pillaging, but I am not clear if armies in vanilla can or cannot pillage. It has just been too long.

I do think I was using pillaging armies in PTW. I am sure I did that in some AU games????? Never can be sure with us old people as we do tend to get our wires crossed from time to time.

No I am not saying stacks will be ignored, just that if they are big enough they should be able to handle attacks. Especially with lots of arties.

If they have an army on top of them and you do not use the NoAiPatrol in C3C armies of full health are not attacked. I cannot remember if that is true in vanilla.

I am not positive, but I seem to recall I was able to steal techs without having prereq techs, but that may be wrong.

They seem to have made it harder to beat techs out of them, but not impossible. They made it so you cannot make deal for cities, except as part of a peace pack.

	15-07-2005 02:48									#24
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Without looking a save, here are some thoughts:

1. You are allied with your greatest enemy?!!? You need to get others to wage war against your enemy. You should be able to prepare to defend well against the Germans prior to getting others to fight them. Of course, this leads to the next problem you have.

2. Your reputation seems to suck. Lots of broken treaties early in this game appear to be a big problem. Your rep is more important the higher up you go in difficulty level. With your existing lousy rep, your trading is hindered, your ability to get others to go to war with you is affected, etc. You sometimes need to pass up a lesser gain for a few turns to preserve your rep. Those towns can still be conquered after the peace treaty/trade deal expires.

3. You let the Germans get tanks before taking care of them. The Germans should be dealt with before Panzers.

4. What is your government? Sounds like you are in Monarchy. Republic is a much better choice for a healthy civ with a good economy. Yes you have to support your units, but with luxuries, markets, banks the extra bonuses of Republic are needed and make a huge difference. At Deity, many players go from Anarchy to Republic and never change again (too much anarchy).

5. Do you use Mobilization? If you want war, make sure you take advantage of the extra shield bonus of mobilization.

6. Related to #1, don't trade anything to the Germans! Every deal you are making to help yourself is helping your greatest threat stay on top.

You have stated you are a warmonger. I haven't played Monarch in forever, but a good war requires a sound economy to support the effort. At higher difficulties, this is more and more true as the AI production bonuses are substantial. The game you are in sounds like a slugfest at this point, but you are learning some principles for your next Monarch game. I'm very interested in hearing of your next game results after preserving your reputation. If I were interested in doing better at Civ, I'd quit the game you're playing and start over. You may eventually outfight the lousy AI, but improving in that area isn't going to get you to Emperor or Deity anytime soon.

	17-07-2005 15:16									#25
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But, I like waging war as a monarchy and it's the first time of playing CIV 3 that any power has had this type of a leap against me.

And, I like slugging it out, so, just trying to figure out the best way to whoop Germany.

I'm no longer allied with Germany; they broke the alliance and attacked me. I'm monarchy b/c communism makes you take bodies to complete projects fast instead of gold.

Reputation is definitely shot. And, yes, I use mobilization.

It's going to get ugly now that they have tanks and the best thing I can think of is saving up 5000 GP to make a safe and probable steal of mobile warfare.

Does it behoove me to change to communism to get faster tech?

Thanks,

StoryTeller

	17-07-2005 15:34									#26
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Communism could reduce overall corruption, if your empire is big. This is the main bonus it gets you. As to techs, it might help research, but the main thing is the Veteran Spies.

Why did you not post a save yet?

	17-07-2005 15:42									#27
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Screen shot . .. uhm, maybe it's late, but, I'm not seeing a browse key when I hit reply. How important is it for me to post a map.

Didn't think about veteran spies b/c I never stole technology. I used to play w/o any of the patches and they would give you tech after you beat them up some. Now they're willing to be destroyed before giving tech, I've noticed, so, change of strategy.

StoryTeller

Last edited by StoryTellerSJEM on 17-07-2005 at 15:55

	17-07-2005 15:57									#28
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.... I'll wait until I get some definitive info rather than clogging up this discussion. Apolyton won't let me delete my messages.

StoryTeller

Last edited by StoryTellerSJEM on 17-07-2005 at 16:04

	17-07-2005 18:58									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

to post a screenshot:
take a screenie in the usual way and save as
(for eg.) C:\My Documents\My Pictures\screenshot.jpg

take the blue pill

or,.. hit the post reply button
at the top (-ish) of the 'post reply' screen is a row of buttons, like this



hit the 'img' button and an input box will pop up
type in the location of your screenshot
(eg. C:\My Documents\My Pictures\screenshot.jpg)



hit ok and submit reply

but if you want to keep the ol' dragon happy,
to post a save:
you may need to zip the file first
then hit the 'post reply' button
at the bottom of the screen, hit the browse button and point to the location of your save.
submit reply



edit: i just tried doing this and couldn't get it to work myself.
but it has done the job before

Last edited by lebensraum on 19-07-2005 at 01:29

	19-07-2005 00:27									#30
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I would like to see a screenshot or save of this game also.

I wonder whether the game is winnable at all from this point with the Germans running panzers.

Golden Bear