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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:19
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yeah why would you start appreciating thread. Don't be Chirac apologist... it's not your fault and you won't be held responsible, and people kind of expect him to continue with things upsetting others.
And I wouldn't start appreciating thread about socialist state that is going straight to hell in the next 30 years anyway, economically. Structured unemployment, that is not getting even slightly solved or lightened. No one does anything to it. Everyone is afraid to screw up so they rather not do anything. FACT.
And how does this solve the problem? Well it doesn't, it just makes it tougher to solve in the future. You're not expected to make more than 25-30k a year, minus half because of income tax, minus what ever the *peep* from other taxes, go to buy stuff, plus 22% VAT everything, gas prices so high, even diesel costs close to 1 euro per liter now.. DIESEL!!!! And it ain't coming down. Regular goes for 1.20 or higher. Most of the times higher. And public transportation is even more expensive so it's actually more often than not cheaper to drive alone with the car that is averagely 10 years old. THat's the car pool we have. Damn Japanese box cars, one hit, two kills!
But still it's OK when comparing to underdeveloped nations and also some other more succesful nations.
But it's turning into bad every single day, more and more, and there's no help coming with these damn social democrats, other word for stupid fat people, or with our leftist 'movement', but it's nto a movement because it's the establishment and has been like forever. And still they somehow manage to be trendy and claiming they are the future because they have ideas and stuff, it's not like they don't already dominate. SO what now? THey need 100% representation so they can truly turn this country into commie madness?
or what about thsoe stabbing killers, or shooters, or just plain murderers, who MIGHT get 10 years from murder, that means brutal killing, not planned killing in here by the way, and first timers get out in half? ****.. few years in and the vacations starts rolling! There's no justice in here.
In short, there's no justice in here, there's no protection of citizens here since you pay more to the state than the victim if you happen to get caught from baseball bat smashing someones head, there's NO economical future in here, our defense is getting weaker by the day as well, and all the main positions are manned by leftist *****es now and in the future as well, the youth is not interested in breaking this lock but going for trendy greens because 'they are for the environment and that's a good thing!', or leftists because (US is classic example of bastard nation and we want to be the opposite, ro similar collective responsibility over stabbing drunks BS) etc etc.. there's no future in here. WE have ridden the wave already. We need another war or something to change this crap.
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yogho
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
or what about thsoe stabbing killers, or shooters, or just plain murderers, who MIGHT get 10 years from murder, that means brutal killing, not planned killing in here by the way, and first timers get out in half? ****.. few years in and the vacations starts rolling! There's no justice in here. |
WTF are you talking about? Murder in Finland means planned killing OR brutal killing. The only punishment for murder is life sentence, and while it's true that most murderers are paroled after 10-15 years, its because most murderers (and while I haven't got the statistics here right now, I'm fairly sure it's over 80 %) are normal people who stabbed their drinking buddy or a bystander in a drunken rage, and are not especially violent people nor likely to kill again.
All murderers are currently first timers, but they won't get out in half, because there is no "half" in life sentences.
Professional criminals who have killed doing their business will sit in prison far longer, and insane people are in a nuthouse propably for the rest of their life. People do die of old age in Finnish prisons. For example the biker gang members who shoot at each other on streets in broad daylight will definetly sit for more than 20 years.
The biggest reason why our murder sentences are lower than some other countries' is that we don't have so much professional criminals. And professionals don't kill, because they know that the police will hunt down killers, even if it means ignoring other crimes for saving the resources for it. More than 90 % of killings are solved.
While I agree that it's not rare to see Finnish justice system letting someone off too lightly, and it too easily punishes for self defence, the common whining about it's ultra-leniency is usually done by people who get their facts from the garbage evening-newspapers.
You should remember that only one released killer in the history of independent Finland has killed again. And he wasn't released the second time.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:19
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" Murder in Finland means planned killing OR brutal killing. "
Wrong. Planning is only one bonus but alone does not make killing into murder in Finland. Please, do your homework before going on wtf-mode. Yeah I know it's weird.
And because universally murder IS when you plan and kill someone, I said murder doesn't land you for more than possibly 10 years. A murder by Finnish standards will get you life, but since it's not enough to be only kill and plan, well..
" normal people who stabbed their drinking buddy or a bystander in a drunken rage"
Yes yes.. normal people plan to kill people and execute while making it exceptionally brutal.. yeah.. sure.. what ever.. just a little drunk.. not responsible.. just normal.. it happens..
"All murderers are currently first timers, but they won't get out in half, because there is no "half" in life sentences."
That's right. But since planning to kill and do it is not enough ALONE to get murder sentence in here, you can murder in what we universally think is murder and not get life. You can get 10 years. And out in half. If you even get 10 years that is.
"Professional criminals who have killed doing their business will sit in prison far longer"
Far longer than half? Oh my heart is bleeding! NO not the full sentence? Come on, that's just brutal!
"For example the biker gang members who shoot at each other on streets in broad daylight will definetly sit for more than 20 years.
"
Oh this is a fact? Tell me one example. Oh, hasn't happened yet? Right.
"The biggest reason why our murder sentences are lower than some other countries' is that we don't have so much professional criminals."
This fact is based on what? Your gut feeling? And if that was true, so what? Where's your logic in this argument to begin with?
"And professionals don't kill"
 Are you trying to make my commie **** list on purpose?
Yeah because true professionals only steal candy. It's far more safe.
"More than 90 % of killings are solved."
First fact you provided.
"While I agree that it's not rare to see Finnish justice system letting someone off too lightly, and it too easily punishes for self defence, the common whining about it's ultra-leniency is usually done by people who get their facts from the garbage evening-newspapers."
go on. Own yourself even more. You don't even know the definition of murder. You make up stuff and your only fact is that cops solve appx 90%. Nice dude. Oh, and that stuff is from where? Garbage papers  Another self ownage right there..
"You should remember that only one released killer in the history of independent Finland has killed again."
Who?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:19
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And now that you even further misinterpret my last post, I'd like to explain it, so it's clear enough. IF you have a plan, a damn 20 page powerpoint presentation, advance payment from someone, you say that 20 people hear your plans and they see the presentation, it's a murder even in here. That is showing intention.
What we mean when we talk about plan is however a real damn plan with almost blue prints etc. I say if you have contemplated killing someone for a day, talk about it to one person and do it, it's a murder. THat is, however, not murder in our justice system yet. If a person goes home to get gun, only to return back to kill some people, they have thought about it and I call that a plan to kill, since you didn't do it suddenly. If you actually took steps, you had some time to think it over, or more, to cool off, and you still do it, it's a murder. That's a plan, even if it's just mental.
YOu don't need blue prints and powerpoint presentations to have something that is a plan.
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yogho
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quote:
Originally posted by Pekka
"Professional criminals who have killed doing their business will sit in prison far longer"
Far longer than half? Oh my heart is bleeding! NO not the full sentence? Come on, that's just brutal! |
I meant longer than ten years
quote:
"And professionals don't kill"
Are you trying to make my commie **** list on purpose?
Yeah because true professionals only steal candy. It's far more safe. |
Professional criminals rob, steal and sell drugs among other things. They do this because it makes money and the risk of getting caught is relatively small. They avoid killing, because they know that if they kill, they'll get the police after them like no other act will. They don't want to get in jail. Of course the whole picture isn't as rosy, they are still involved in murders, but they don't kill personally, they just use some morons from the street. But the point is, they are rarely sentenced for murders when compared to drunk killers.
quote:
"You should remember that only one released killer in the history of independent Finland has killed again."
Who? |
I don't remember his name, but it was a guy who first killed someone because of some dispute with his wife. When he was released, he drove straight to his wife's place and shot her and her new boyfriend. I don't remember the details right now.
Concerning what is murder and what isn't, "vakaasti harkiten" clearly means to do something purposefully. This is the way the courts interpret it. If you do an act whose intention is to kill, say shoot someone in the head, you are commiting a murder even in Finland. If you can convince the court that you were blinded by rage, and just shot at the guy, and it was an accident that it hit his head, and you actually didn't try to kill him, you might get off with manslaughter. Granted, this happens far too often, but it doesn't change that your interpretion is somethig completely weird. I have never heard anyone else to claim that intentional killing isn't murder.
I don't even understand how you inerpret the word suunniteltu. If the law said that, then it would mean that you would need an actual plan, harkiten means basically that you just have to think that "I want him dead" and then kill him.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:19
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OK I give you that big pros are mostly ordering hits, not doing it themselves. But then again, that's how it is everywhere.
"This is the way the courts interpret it. If you do an act whose intention is to kill, say shoot someone in the head, you are commiting a murder even in Finland."
Not so simple. I mean, when you think about it, it's that simple, but then again courts of law in here are fighting to get the minimum charges, not the other way around.
If you shoot someone in the head execution style, of course it's a murder. But then again that often is also sign of brutality. Sure, of course it also shows the intention. However, almost everyone who thinks about killing someone, goes and does it, excluding clear pro execution, is just a normal kill and not murder. What I mean is, when I have determined to kill someone over dispute, and I go do it, meaning I have the motive to do it, I have more time than one hour, I actually go over that place, armed, and the other person dies, it's more often than not just a kill, not murder. In those cases it needs to show unusual brutality. It's not a kill when you thinka bout it, go armed, clearly you have planned to kill that person, and more often than not it's not murder. Because murders are relatively rare in here, but killings are common. I'm not talking about drunk stabber.
Also if you carry a knife with you and you are sober, and you stab a bystander 30 times, I say that's a murder even if you don't know the person. You are carrying a weapon with you, you aren't even drunk, and if you initiate the attack, then it's a murder. Like the stabbers lately, who have attacked random folks in the street, I don't see that as attempted manslaughter or anything, I see that as attempted murder. Like I said, I don't need a powerpoint presentation, if that other person is just random dude, and the gang goes in, talks smack and pushes the person around and at the end stabs them multiple times, that's attempted murder in my books. Because there was enough intention. And when you go and kill someone when you actually have a motive and knwo the person, that needs to be a murder in every single case, unless it truly happened suddenly and it was a weird situation. MOre often that not, it's never murder in here for some reason.
I never said intentional killing isn't a murder. I said it is, but the court of law rarely sees it the same. Outside drunk stabbers who stab friends with kitchen knife, those situations happen by accident, or by what ever extremely rarely. Someone is always already armed, and they go and do it. THat's a murder. Rarely it's seen as one in the court.
Besides, the word harkiten leaves too much air. What is harkiten? Where is the line drawn? In my opinion it's drawn in the absolute minimum, meaning that if there's any kind of intention beforehand, it's always harkiten. But somehow almost no one gets convicted of murder, but lesser manslaughters etc all the time for clear situations.
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yogho
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Here you can see what the the Supreme Court (or how should I translate Korkein oikeus?) says about interprating what is harkiten and what isn't:
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/oikeus/kko/...&search%5Bpika%
It describes a case where the Supreme Court changes lower court's manslaughter to murder.
Your gun example would clearly be a murder for them. And any killings besides drunk stabbers are pretty rare in Finland.
I think it's pretty clear that it's murder when the decision to kill is a product of rational thinking, or like the text behind the link says, if the killer has considered the killing as a solution to a problem. If it's a sudden decision made more by instinct than thought, it's manslaughter. The problem here is, that if the killer doesn't do anything obvious, like go to get a weapon and then come back to kill, how can you prove what he was thinking?
The point I was trying to make with professional criminals, and I don't just mean the real pros, but people who make their living from crime, that while Finland has far more violent crime than any other country in Western Europe, we still have, according to all studies, relatively little professional crime. The wast majority of killings in Finland happens when two drunks are in a heated argument, and the other one feels his honor insulted or something, his instincts take over and he strikes the other dead before realizing what he's doing. The main cause is our drinking habits and fairly aggressive culture. There are of course cases among them where the killing is clearly a murder, but when it seems to outside just the same, how can the courts prove it? After all, when there's doubt, you should always make sure that no innocents suffer at the hands of justice.
I don't know if this concerns you or not, but the biggest whining is for example when the Natural Born Killers makes one of their executions, which gets alot of publicity, and then someone reminds the people that most killers receive light sentences. What they fail to notice is that the executioners make up a very small percentage of killers, and they still get life, and if something drastic doesn't happen in the next decades, they will be locked up for a long, long time.
Many say that people should just control themselves, but I have done in some situations things I wouldn't have wanted to just by instinct (nothing criminal though, and I still don't beleive I woulld kill someone), and couldn't think fast enough to stop myself. I can understand that, in the right circumstances, especially if heavily drunk, it isn't so difficult to kill by half-accident, and the person who does that isn't necessarily evil and doesn't deserve his life to be totally ruined by a life sentence.
When you compare Finnish criteria for murder with other countries', you should note that while some perhaps give murder sentences more lightly, not every country has a life sentence as a mandatory punishment. If the court feels that life is too harsh for a case, it has to go for manslaughter.
Still, I agree that the courts are too ften too careful, and for example in the case I linked, the lower court was nuts to claim there wasn't intent. The punshment sholud also be raisde with manslaughter, since now many can get with practically only four years in prison, and that's too light, even if they did lose control. The trend lately has been though to increase sentences and to widen the criteria for murder.
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05-07-2005 04:44
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