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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:18
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Originally posted by JohnT
A question:
What book was it that made you "get" this series? |
Seeing as I am a young'n who read the first book when it came out and was approximately the same age as Harry, the first one. That said, if I began reading them now I don't think either the first or second would have made me a fan.
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Originally posted by JohnT
Reason why I ask is because I read the first one this weekend, and while it was a nice, kind of charming book, I just don't see what the fuss is about. However, it really seems more of an introduction into the world of HP rather than the beginning of an apparently long, fairly convoluted plot (if what I'm reading in these spoiler boxes is any measure.) Perhaps the really good stuff begins in book 2? |
Book 2? Err, no.  Not in my opinion anyway. I never liked the second one much.
The third is much better than either of the first two, and things really begin moving with the fourth which is also much better than its predecessors; things finally start getting darker, for one thing. I'd say that either of those might be where you "get" it if you make it that far.
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Originally posted by reismark
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3) Wouldn't the power of Harry's love (eww... I didn't mean that the way it sounds) be tempered somewhat by having one-seventh of Voldemort's soul stuck within him? Seriously, Voldemort's inability to physically touch Harry prior to the end of Goblet and ineffectively possess Harry in Phoenix doesn't jive with this idea.
4) As someone already mentioned, the point of the Horcrux is to keep the thing alive and viable. It's illogical to think Voldemort was planning to use the body of Harry as the Horcrux itself. (In fact, Dumbledore says that "to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business".)
Besides, when has Dumbledore ever been wrong? (And don't use Snape killing him as an example of that.)
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On point 3, it's hard to say exactly how living Horcruxes work, much less how it would interact with the power of Harry's love. As with everything magical, Rowling could say it works pretty much however she wants it to.
On point 4, remember that Voldemort wasn't exactly planning to fall when he went to kill Harry.  So no, of course he wasn't planning on using him as a Horcrux. We don't know how long the window of opportunity to make a Horcrux is; do you have to do it within seconds of the murder? A day? Or does the tear in the soul stay there forever, ready for a fragment to be ripped off whenever? So long as Voldemort had time to return elsewhere to an item he wanted to use, he was probably planning to kill the Potters and then do the actual Horcrux work elsewhere. But then that plan would have fallen through. If he was desperate to set up one more Horcrux before dying (and was able to do so) then Harry could have been the most convenient thing on hand.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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I just finished it tonight  .
I went on Friday evening to the B&N with a few friends. I got their really early so was able to check my (and my friends') names off so we'd be in the group of the first 50 people to buy the book at 12:01 (I'm a hero to my friends now).
So I got it at like 12:05 AM and in the bag was a rubber braclet (like the "Livestrong" yellow Lance Armstrong one). But this one was green and had an owl next to 'July 16, 2005'. I've been wearing it for the last two days .
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WOW! I had a feeling Dumbledore would die, but not like that! Snape did him in, but there is some leeway in there to believe that Snape was doing what Dumbledore wanted. When Dumbledore said "Severus, please", he may have been pleading to put aside his feelings and do what needed to be done.
Though there may be a third option with Snape. Snape was cured, but giving him the DADA position gave him too much temptation and returned him to his old ways. Though I have a feeling that one way or another, Snape will be redeemed.
And SNAPE, being the Half-Blood Prince? Of all the predictions, I don't think ANY mentioned Snape!
Btw, in most of my predicitions after OotP, I was correct. On romances, Harry ended up with Ginny, though now there may be no more romance for young Harry (of course, Ginny, headstrong like Lily Potter might not take no for an answer and accompany Harry, Ron, and Hermione). Harry-Luna looks ridiculous now, looking back. Ron and Hermione look like a given. And when I said earlier this thread that Dumbledore would probably die at the end to set up a cliffhanger like ending... yep. I wish I was this good at other things .
My prediction is Harry WILL die at the end of the 7th book. Take it to the bank. The story is a tragedy and the main character will have to go. Harry has left Ginny behind already, leaving no one for him by Ron and Hermione, and Ron and Hermione will get together, leaving Harry as the one by himself. Harry will make the ultimate sacrifice to kill Voldemort. He will do what is right, instead of what is easy.
On the Horcrux being Harry, I'm not sure. Perhaps it could be. Dumbledore is never wrong, yes, but he never said Voldemort would NEVER do it. It just said it would be risky and we have seen if it was Harry, then it was risky. That would also explain why Harry could see what the Dark Lord was seeing in OotP.
What an amazing ending though. R.H.B will be interesting though and if that is Black's brother or not, we'll have to see.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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Originally posted by Verto
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It makes a lot of sense, actually; if Voldemort kills Harry, who cares if he loses a bit of his life, since no one can then seriously oppose him. If, on the other hand, Harry confronts and bests Voldemort, he will always have that last part to fall back on.
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It still makes no sense- Why would Voldemort put a piece of his soul in a boy who might get killed randomly, specially when Voldemort was utterly incapacitated and his followers hated Harry's guts?
No, I think this is way overthinking the matter. The idea that Harry dies at the end of these books is silly. This is a story for all ages- killing a protagonist after 7 books is not going to happen, not in a line of books like this.
I would bet 10 bucks that, NO, Harry is NOT Hoxcrux (spll-whatever) and that the 7th book will be Harry anhd his friends finding and detroying all the bits of Voldemort.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
My prediction is Harry WILL die at the end of the 7th book. Take it to the bank. The story is a tragedy and the main character will have to go. Harry has left Ginny behind already, leaving no one for him by Ron and Hermione, and Ron and Hermione will get together, leaving Harry as the one by himself. Harry will make the ultimate sacrifice to kill Voldemort. He will do what is right, instead of what is easy.
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Harry Potter is not a tragedy. Its a coming of age story. Harry is meant to evoke something in the young reader- the love of parents, the need of friends. Why do you think Dumbledore makes sure Harry shares with Ron and Herminone? Why do you think Rowling has them tell Harry they will be by him? Harry is alone in one sense, but never alone in the other-that is Dumbledore's point when it comes to love- what makes Voldermort and Harry different is that Harry, even when parentless, is never alone, while Voldermort always was alone and it warped him.
You can take your deposit back because Harry won't die. Again, the prophesy states one lives, one dies. If it stated: one can;t perish without the other or something like that, maybe, but Dumbledore would not be setting Harry up for a suicide mission. It would also undermine his notion that love is stronger than Magic- if Harry must die, it means that love was able to overcome magic, but only with its own demise.
Harry Potter is as likely to die at the end of his tale as Rambo is of getting killed by the bad guys.
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On the Horcrux being Harry, I'm not sure. Perhaps it could be. Dumbledore is never wrong, yes, but he never said Voldemort would NEVER do it. It just said it would be risky and we have seen if it was Harry, then it was risky. That would also explain why Harry could see what the Dark Lord was seeing in OotP.
What an amazing ending though. R.H.B will be interesting though and if that is Black's brother or not, we'll have to see.
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If Dumbledore has done sucha good job in figuring out where the Hoxcruxes were, why on earth would he be so incompetent as he developed his theory to miss the one sitting under his nose for 16 years? Come on people, think
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
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Harry Potter is not a tragedy. Its a coming of age story. Harry is meant to evoke something in the young reader- the love of parents, the need of friends. Why do you think Dumbledore makes sure Harry shares with Ron and Herminone? Why do you think Rowling has them tell Harry they will be by him? Harry is alone in one sense, but never alone in the other-that is Dumbledore's point when it comes to love- what makes Voldermort and Harry different is that Harry, even when parentless, is never alone, while Voldermort always was alone and it warped him.
You can take your deposit back because Harry won't die. Again, the prophesy states one lives, one dies. If it stated: one can;t perish without the other or something like that, maybe, but Dumbledore would not be setting Harry up for a suicide mission. It would also undermine his notion that love is stronger than Magic- if Harry must die, it means that love was able to overcome magic, but only with its own demise.
Harry Potter is as likely to die at the end of his tale as Rambo is of getting killed by the bad guys.
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I'm not taking the deposit back. Harry WILL die. He simply cannot live after his fight with Voldemort. The prophecy only says that one cannot live while the other survives. It doesn't say that both cannot die. Harry has Ron and Hermione as friends, but the only people who were parents to him since learning of magic, Sirius and Dumbledore, have been killed off. And when he kills Voldemort, what then? How can he continue on a 'normal' life? The alternative to death is a Frodo like existance where he just retreats from the world.
It's not about love overcoming other magic or friendship. It's about doing what is right over what is easy, and that indicates to me that Harry sacrifices himself to do what is right.
And remember, Rowling loves the big surprise at the tail end of her novels. This one also will be the suprise at the end of the SERIES. And the suprises have gotten bolder:
PS/SS - Quirell being possessed by Voldemort
CoS - Ginny being possessed by Voldemort through a books horcrux
PoA - Sirius being a good guy and Scabbers being Peter Pettigrew, a bad guy
GoF - Diggory dies, Voldemort comes back to full power and the Death Eaters return
OotP - Sirius dies
HBP - Dumbledore dies
What can be bigger than Dumbledore dying but Harry dying? Unless there is an "I am your father" moment (I HIGHLY doubt that, though). I don't think that Snape actually being a good guy would qualify however (neither would Draco saving Harry)... it isn't BIG enough of a shock
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If Dumbledore has done sucha good job in figuring out where the Hoxcruxes were, why on earth would he be so incompetent as he developed his theory to miss the one sitting under his nose for 16 years? Come on people, think
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What the... ?
In Dumbledore's theory where did you get the notion that he knew what all the horcruxes were? Obviously he didn't an he admitted it. He had an idea of what they were based on his past, but the last one, he had no clue whatsoever. So it easily could have been infront of him.
Remember Dumbledore's words, since he is cleverer than most people, his mistakes end up being huger
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B&N also handed out a Scholastic HP poster to everyone as they left the line. It's pretty cool, like a collage of each book's cover. They also gave out Harry Potter glasses. |
Oh yeah, I got them too . Got that as we registered our names.
Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 18-07-2005 at 11:43
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by SpencerH
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Nice one Guy
RAG -> Regulus Black. 
I wonder if he is definitely dead. That Kreacher is Harrys would suggest yes, but I wonder.
Snape is not a deatheater. I think the fight with Harry proves that. Harry cant touch him but Snape does not retaliate. That fact seems very strange given that Snape has just taken the drastic step of killing Dumbledore (against Voldemorts wishes that Malfoy do it).
One has to wonder why Dumbledore felt he had to sacrifice his life? Even weakened he had to know that he could have defeated Malfoy and the other deatheaters. Throughout the book, I repeatedly thought that the wound from the ring-Horcrux was killing him. I think he knew that he was dying. He told Snape that he was going to have to kill him (the argument in the woods) and thats why he wanted Harry to get Snape rather than madame Pomfrey. At the end, Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to kill him not to spare him. I think that his death was indeed a 'sacrifice' that will have some magical benefit.
Snape loved Lily. He was helping her and thats why she was so good at potions. Her death is what turned him against Voldemort.
Harry will go back to school. Harry is not a Horcrux and he will not die, c'est impossible.
The last Horcrux will be the tapestry in the Blacks house (or perhaps it will be the clue to the last one).
One has to wonder how Harry will be able to collect four horcrux when collecting 2 has killed Dumbledore!
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I have to agree 95%. (ughh, I just agreed with Spenc 95%... Oh well). I don't know about the tapestry, but the other stuff is just what I was thinking: Having James have Lilly must definitelly have been on of the reasons Snape hated James so much, and his insults of Lilly were the sort of hurtful things someone would say if the ones they loved turned their back on them.
I think that Snape will be there for the last fight between Harry and Voldemort, and will be crucial to Harry's victory (perhaps maybe killing the snake Nagili), and will himself be killed. That's the only way i see him rehabilitated in the eyes of Harry, which is what matters, since the a paragraph of writing would rehabilitate the reader to Snape.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
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I'm not taking the deposit back. Harry WILL die. He simply cannot live after his fight with Voldemort. The prophecy only says that one cannot live while the other survives. It doesn't say that both cannot die. Harry has Ron and Hermione as friends, but the only people who were parents to him since learning of magic, Sirius and Dumbledore, have been killed off. And when he kills Voldemort, what then? How can he continue on a 'normal' life? The alternative to death is a Frodo like existance where he just retreats from the world.
It's not about love overcoming other magic or friendship. It's about doing what is right over what is easy, and that indicates to me that Harry sacrifices himself to do what is right.
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Not its not. Harry does what is easy plenty of times, and sometimes it certainly helps (using the Half blood prince's book, which helps him get the potion, which helps him get crucial memory that confirms Dumbledore's story). The story is one of coming of gae, as should be obvious from the fact we have a boy coming of age. Learning that to do what is right over what is easy is important is certainly one lesson, but not the only one. The importance of friendship is another. Potter isolating himself, forcing Ginny away in order to make himself feel better at the end is "the easy thing to do", easier at least that sticking with Ginny and letting HER decide what sort of dangers she is willing to face for Harry.
In the end, even if we accept your premise, the difference boils down to, LOVE is hard, MAGIC is easy.
Oh, and on the prophecy. If your idea was correct, the prophecy makes no sense, simply because if Harry won without himself dying Voldemort under your Hoxcurx premise would still live.
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And remember, Rowling loves the big surprise at the tail end of her novels. This one also will be the suprise at the end of the SERIES. And the suprises have gotten bolder:
PS/SS - Quirell being possessed by Voldemort
CoS - Ginny being possessed by Voldemort through a books horcrux
PoA - Sirius being a good guy and Scabbers being Peter Pettigrew, a bad guy
GoF - Diggory dies, Voldemort comes back to full power and the Death Eaters return
OotP - Sirius dies
HBP - Dumbledore dies
What can be bigger than Dumbledore dying but Harry dying? Unless there is an "I am your father" moment (I HIGHLY doubt that, though). I don't think that Snape actually being a good guy would qualify however (neither would Draco saving Harry)... it isn't BIG enough of a shock
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There is a difference between novels building up to the end, and the end. Rowling needs to keep the readers coming back. Book 7 is the end. She has no need to surprise anyone, and in fact, none of the things you have said are really "surprises", they all fit within the plot. It's just that the plot is being revealed to the reader as they are revealed to Harry. You yourself said Dumbledore must die for Harry to be the grand hero. How was Dumbledore dying then "a surprise"? Had Hermione gotten offed, NOW THAT would have been a surprise as it would seem to be so random and unnecessary for the unfolding of the story.
But again, book seven is the end, where all the plot lines join and end. The Weasley;s dying would be a surprise. Draco being "rehabilitated" would be a surprise. Harry dying would run counter to the basics of the plot. We will see when book seven comes out, and I will collect.
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What the... ?
In Dumbledore's theory where did you get the notion that he knew what all the horcruxes were? Obviously he didn't an he admitted it. He had an idea of what they were based on his past, but the last one, he had no clue whatsoever. So it easily could have been infront of him.
Remember Dumbledore's words, since he is cleverer than most people, his mistakes end up being huger
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And that can very well be assumed to refer to Snape, or even to letting Tom Riddle into the school to learn wizardry in the first place, because if he hadn't, there would have never been a Lord Voldemort.
Harry being a Hoxcrux makes no sense, given what we were told how these things work, what they are.
1. If Voldemort had a piece of his own Soul in Harry, then Harry would never be able to kill Voldemort. Ginny was under the full control of Voldermort when she had a piece of his sould in a book she owned. With a piece within him Harry would certainly not really be able to function. And of course, why the hell would he not have used his own hoxcrux to aid his accension. Even if Harry had no concious knowledge of it, anymore than Ginny did, Harry would have been working for Voldemort all this time. To say "Harry is a Hoxcrux" is to ignore what we have already been told about how those thing work. Also, Voldemort wants to kill Harry-putting a piece of his own soul in a thing he expressely wants to kill makes no sense, since it would ruin is magic number 7.
2. Yes, Dumbledore does not know what 2 of the other things are because he does not know exactly were Voldermort has been all this time. But he has been able to figure out all the ones based on pieces of information he gathered about Voldemort and his goings on: how he knew to look under the demolished cottage, or in the cave, or think of Nagili, and Diary, the locket, the cup, Mavolo's ring, as Hoxcruxes. Dumbledore most obviously knows Voldermort was with Harry, he certainly knows that they were together at a moment of death. If Dumbledore believed Voldermort would be trying to do things no wizzard had ever done before- he would have gotten the slight notion that maybe Harry was one himself from the day he came up with the theory, and he has had more than enough time to check it out.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
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Not its not. Harry does what is easy plenty of times, and sometimes it certainly helps (using the Half blood prince's book, which helps him get the potion, which helps him get crucial memory that confirms Dumbledore's story). The story is one of coming of gae, as should be obvious from the fact we have a boy coming of age. Learning that to do what is right over what is easy is important is certainly one lesson, but not the only one. The importance of friendship is another. Potter isolating himself, forcing Ginny away in order to make himself feel better at the end is "the easy thing to do", easier at least that sticking with Ginny and letting HER decide what sort of dangers she is willing to face for Harry.
In the end, even if we accept your premise, the difference boils down to, LOVE is hard, MAGIC is easy.
Oh, and on the prophecy. If your idea was correct, the prophecy makes no sense, simply because if Harry won without himself dying Voldemort under your Hoxcurx premise would still live.
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JK Rowling has on a number of occasions said the books are centrally about what is right vs. what is easy. YES, Harry using the Half-Blood's Prince's book was easy. That is what got him in trouble (with SectumSempra, etc). He went with what was easy. Harry has to realize that what is easy is not always right and he has to do the difficult thing. It is central.
I never said Harry WAS the horcrux, I said he COULD be, even though I don't think he will be in the end. Rowling could throw us all for a loop. And under the Harry is a horcrux theory, one can say that a Voldemort deep inside Harry would destroy Harry from within if the living Voldemort had died.
And the prophecy could still be correct under the horcrux theory. One cannot live while the other survives. If Voldemort's last soul is within Harry, how can both live?
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There is a difference between novels building up to the end, and the end. Rowling needs to keep the readers coming back. Book 7 is the end. She has no need to surprise anyone, and in fact, none of the things you have said are really "surprises", they all fit within the plot. It's just that the plot is being revealed to the reader as they are revealed to Harry. You yourself said Dumbledore must die for Harry to be the grand hero. How was Dumbledore dying then "a surprise"? Had Hermione gotten offed, NOW THAT would have been a surprise as it would seem to be so random and unnecessary for the unfolding of the story.
But again, book seven is the end, where all the plot lines join and end. The Weasley;s dying would be a surprise. Draco being "rehabilitated" would be a surprise. Harry dying would run counter to the basics of the plot. We will see when book seven comes out, and I will collect.
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Oh please! The surprises were just to keep the readers coming back? It's part of Rowling's writings. She likes the shock at the end, not so readers say, wow, that was a surprise, maybe I'll read the next one. And yes, Dumbledore dying was a surprise even though some had predicted it. I fail to see how they weren't surprises. A prediction realized doesn't mean it fails to be a surprise. Remember earlier in thread you had people saying Dumbledore couldn't die in this one. Maybe next one, but not this one. Most people were sure of DD's death also because of the leaks.
Book 7 will end with one last massive shock. It's Rowling's signature, and the last of the series has to have a suprise far bigger than the rest. Harry dying would be one. Ron or Hermione dying could be another. Draco being 'rehabilitated' or Snape apparently coming back to the good side would not.
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And that can very well be assumed to refer to Snape, or even to letting Tom Riddle into the school to learn wizardry in the first place, because if he hadn't, there would have never been a Lord Voldemort.
Harry being a Hoxcrux makes no sense, given what we were told how these things work, what they are.
1. If Voldemort had a piece of his own Soul in Harry, then Harry would never be able to kill Voldemort. Ginny was under the full control of Voldermort when she had a piece of his sould in a book she owned. With a piece within him Harry would certainly not really be able to function. And of course, why the hell would he not have used his own hoxcrux to aid his accension. Even if Harry had no concious knowledge of it, anymore than Ginny did, Harry would have been working for Voldemort all this time. To say "Harry is a Hoxcrux" is to ignore what we have already been told about how those thing work. Also, Voldemort wants to kill Harry-putting a piece of his own soul in a thing he expressely wants to kill makes no sense, since it would ruin is magic number 7.
2. Yes, Dumbledore does not know what 2 of the other things are because he does not know exactly were Voldermort has been all this time. But he has been able to figure out all the ones based on pieces of information he gathered about Voldemort and his goings on: how he knew to look under the demolished cottage, or in the cave, or think of Nagili, and Diary, the locket, the cup, Mavolo's ring, as Hoxcruxes. Dumbledore most obviously knows Voldermort was with Harry, he certainly knows that they were together at a moment of death. If Dumbledore believed Voldermort would be trying to do things no wizzard had ever done before- he would have gotten the slight notion that maybe Harry was one himself from the day he came up with the theory, and he has had more than enough time to check it out.
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Voldemort was able to possess Ginny because she put her heart and soul into the book. We are not sure how horcruxes really work, so we can't be sure what happens when they are in living people. If Voldemort could control living horcruxes then WHY was it so risky to put it in a creature with a mind of its own, as Dumbledore says? It isn't because it may run into an accident, but because it may decide to do something that you didn't want to. It would explain why Harry could see what the actual Voldemort was doing and why they have such a link.
As for killing Harry would leave Voldemort with 6 horcruxes. It isn't like he can't make 7 again. There isn't a limit to these things.
As for Dumbledore knowing, he has made guesses, but he can't be sure. The last one he guessed was maybe something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaw's. I don't think he would have known if a horcrux was placed within Harry somewhere. There is no horcrux test. After all, we get no indication that Dumbledore realizes that he's got a fake horcrux in his hand when he takes the locket (as weak as he is, he should have known that).
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
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JK Rowling has on a number of occasions said the books are centrally about what is right vs. what is easy. YES, Harry using the Half-Blood's Prince's book was easy. That is what got him in trouble (with SectumSempra, etc). He went with what was easy. Harry has to realize that what is easy is not always right and he has to do the difficult thing. It is central.
I never said Harry WAS the horcrux, I said he COULD be, even though I don't think he will be in the end. Rowling could throw us all for a loop. And under the Harry is a horcrux theory, one can say that a Voldemort deep inside Harry would destroy Harry from within if the living Voldemort had died.
And the prophecy could still be correct under the horcrux theory. One cannot live while the other survives. If Voldemort's last soul is within Harry, how can both live?
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The use of SectumSempra got him into minor trouble, nothing compared to the boon it was using it.
As for what is easy, hiding from Voldemort, running away, or joining with him, those would be the easy choices. Just in fighting Voldermort Harry has chosen what is hard and right. To think he must die at the end is going beyond that unnecessarily.
As for the prophesy, as long as Any party of Voldermort's soul lives, he lives. That's why it makes little sense for Harry to be Hoxcrux
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Oh please! The surprises were just to keep the readers coming back? It's part of Rowling's writings. She likes the shock at the end, not so readers say, wow, that was a surprise, maybe I'll read the next one. And yes, Dumbledore dying was a surprise even though some had predicted it. I fail to see how they weren't surprises. A prediction realized doesn't mean it fails to be a surprise. Remember earlier in thread you had people saying Dumbledore couldn't die in this one. Maybe next one, but not this one. Most people were sure of DD's death also because of the leaks.
Book 7 will end with one last massive shock. It's Rowling's signature, and the last of the series has to have a suprise far bigger than the rest. Harry dying would be one. Ron or Hermione dying could be another. Draco being 'rehabilitated' or Snape apparently coming back to the good side would not.
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If you see a plot point coming all the way before, then NO, its not a "shocking surprise". Rowling alwasy gives clues to the reader about what might be up ahead, certainly if you start to read back, you see how she was building up.
As for the last book ending in a great shock, the greatest Shock would be Harry dying and Voldermort winning, would it not? THAT would be the greatest shock of all, not Harry sacraficing himself to win. And yet, I would assume you would rule out that ending. Why, if the ending has to be the biggest shock of all.
Again, none of what has happened has been shocking. It all fits within the greater storyline, which in itself is not a particualrly shocking plot line.
The "surprise" of Dumbledore's death is who does it more than it happens anyways. Even if people said it could not happen in this book, most people thoguht Dumbledore had to die at some point- that becomes a timming issue, not whether his death is a great surprise.
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Voldemort was able to possess Ginny because she put her heart and soul into the book. We are not sure how horcruxes really work, so we can't be sure what happens when they are in living people. If Voldemort could control living horcruxes then WHY was it so risky to put it in a creature with a mind of its own, as Dumbledore says? It isn't because it may run into an accident, but because it may decide to do something that you didn't want to. It would explain why Harry could see what the actual Voldemort was doing and why they have such a link.
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The Harry-Voldermort link was already explained, and cut. Even if we assume a something other then complete control, Voldermort would have to have something muchy deeper than just a one way link (Remember, Harry's link is more one sided, not two-way) with Harry. That has never been shown.
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As for killing Harry would leave Voldemort with 6 horcruxes. It isn't like he can't make 7 again. There isn't a limit to these things.
As for Dumbledore knowing, he has made guesses, but he can't be sure. The last one he guessed was maybe something of Gryffindor's or Ravenclaw's. I don't think he would have known if a horcrux was placed within Harry somewhere. There is no horcrux test. After all, we get no indication that Dumbledore realizes that he's got a fake horcrux in his hand when he takes the locket (as weak as he is, he should have known that).
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And it is still nonsense for Voldermot to make a Hoxcrux that seems to derive him 0 benefit simply to then pruposely destroy it. Lucious got into terrible trouble for letting one of Voldermot's Hoxcruces be destroyed. Voldermort obviously values and treasures them deeply if he goes to great lenghts to protect and hide them.
Why should he assume otherwise? No, its obvious you can;t feel the soul part in it, probably. But again, Dumbledore has had tiome to think this out and try to piece together when Voldermot whould make one. Given that Dumbledore knows the Harry-Voldermot connection so well, Occam's Razo would point to him already having excluded that possiblity before.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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Originally posted by GePap
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The use of SectumSempra got him into minor trouble, nothing compared to the boon it was using it.
As for what is easy, hiding from Voldemort, running away, or joining with him, those would be the easy choices. Just in fighting Voldermort Harry has chosen what is hard and right. To think he must die at the end is going beyond that unnecessarily.
As for the prophesy, as long as Any party of Voldermort's soul lives, he lives. That's why it makes little sense for Harry to be Hoxcrux
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SectumSempra could have gotten him into major trouble. If Snape hadn't been around, Draco could have died and Harry could have been a murder. He wasn't happy at what he'd done. But even then he tries to justify it because he wants to do the easy thing.
Yes, fighting Voldemort is what is hard and right. Dying at the end isn't unnecessary, but the ultimate sacrifice.
As for the prophecy, exactly... as long as Voldemort's soul lives, he lives! If the last part of the soul is within Harry, then he'd try to resurrect himself from inside Harry.
It may not happen, but I can see it. 'One cannot live while the other survives' seems strange. After all, like you said, Harry can hide, so Voldemort could survive and Harry live. Perhaps more will be learned of that line
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If you see a plot point coming all the way before, then NO, its not a "shocking surprise". Rowling alwasy gives clues to the reader about what might be up ahead, certainly if you start to read back, you see how she was building up.
As for the last book ending in a great shock, the greatest Shock would be Harry dying and Voldermort winning, would it not? THAT would be the greatest shock of all, not Harry sacraficing himself to win. And yet, I would assume you would rule out that ending. Why, if the ending has to be the biggest shock of all.
Again, none of what has happened has been shocking. It all fits within the greater storyline, which in itself is not a particualrly shocking plot line.
The "surprise" of Dumbledore's death is who does it more than it happens anyways. Even if people said it could not happen in this book, most people thoguht Dumbledore had to die at some point- that becomes a timming issue, not whether his death is a great surprise.
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Of course it's still a surprise! It's not supposed to be something that you know from the outset. It's something that you get inklings of, but you don't know for sure until it happens. People felt that it would be the end of Dumbledore, but how could they be sure until the end came? Simply because it was 'building up' doesn't make it less of a surprise. She was building up that Quirrell was actually possesed by Voldemort, but how many people got that? When you have people going through every little bit of text, you are going to end up with Rowling's surprises being figured out by some. Doesn't mean that she didn't write it as a surprise (and if someone read all the books straight through without all the hype and parsing of the books, it may indeed surprise them fully).
Yes, Voldemort winning would be a greater shock, but Harry dying would be a larger shock than any that came before it as well. I don't think Rowling would have the bad guys win, but perhaps she may kill off her protagonist. At the very least, it deflects any pressure for her to write adult Harry sequals.
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And it is still nonsense for Voldermot to make a Hoxcrux that seems to derive him 0 benefit simply to then pruposely destroy it. Lucious got into terrible trouble for letting one of Voldermot's Hoxcruces be destroyed. Voldermort obviously values and treasures them deeply if he goes to great lenghts to protect and hide them.
Why should he assume otherwise? No, its obvious you can;t feel the soul part in it, probably. But again, Dumbledore has had tiome to think this out and try to piece together when Voldermot whould make one. Given that Dumbledore knows the Harry-Voldermot connection so well, Occam's Razo would point to him already having excluded that possiblity before.
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No one ever said that Voldemort would make Harry a horcrux because he had oodles of time and what a trophy. The basis behind the theory is that Voldemort planned to make a 7th horcrux out of something of James and Lilly's (maybe Lilly's wedding ring) after killing them and Harry. After all, he makes horcruxes after important killings. And if Harry was in the prophecy, then it'd be a very important killing. However, the spell backfired, but by performing the murder, the soul was able to split in two and Voldemort sent it part of soul into the only thing he could think of at the time, Harry's body itself.
It may not happen, but it certainly is plausible, and I don't see how Dumbledore would be able to piece it together, even after looking at Harry so long. Unless Filch's secret thingy can detect souls trapped inside. Dumbledore is making guesswork here. He doesn't know when the 7 were made and is even surprised that Voldemort's cave would require a blood sacrifice before entry.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
spoiler(highlight to read):
SectumSempra could have gotten him into major trouble. If Snape hadn't been around, Draco could have died and Harry could have been a murder. He wasn't happy at what he'd done. But even then he tries to justify it because he wants to do the easy thing.
Yes, fighting Voldemort is what is hard and right. Dying at the end isn't unnecessary, but the ultimate sacrifice.
As for the prophecy, exactly... as long as Voldemort's soul lives, he lives! If the last part of the soul is within Harry, then he'd try to resurrect himself from inside Harry.
It may not happen, but I can see it. 'One cannot live while the other survives' seems strange. After all, like you said, Harry can hide, so Voldemort could survive and Harry live. Perhaps more will be learned of that line
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Man, all these tags are annoying.Anyways.
No, that prophecy is not that strange- Voldermort believes Harry is his demise, so he believes he has no choice but to kill Harry. Lets remember what Dumbledore says about Voldemort's actions making the prophecy true. It is in the act of caryring it out that it becomes reality-much like in Oedipus.
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Of course it's still a surprise! It's not supposed to be something that you know from the outset. It's something that you get inklings of, but you don't know for sure until it happens. People felt that it would be the end of Dumbledore, but how could they be sure until the end came? Simply because it was 'building up' doesn't make it less of a surprise. She was building up that Quirrell was actually possesed by Voldemort, but how many people got that? When you have people going through every little bit of text, you are going to end up with Rowling's surprises being figured out by some. Doesn't mean that she didn't write it as a surprise (and if someone read all the books straight through without all the hype and parsing of the books, it may indeed surprise them fully).
Yes, Voldemort winning would be a greater shock, but Harry dying would be a larger shock than any that came before it as well. I don't think Rowling would have the bad guys win, but perhaps she may kill off her protagonist. At the very least, it deflects any pressure for her to write adult Harry sequals.
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Now you revert from shock to surprise? If i suspect I will get a surprise party, I might be surprised about the particualrs, but not that I did get one. As for what people expect, that is an issue of lack of info (the asture reader will see it), not of whether the plot is filled with strange twists and turns. While Harry would efinitelly already act in suicidal ways to help his friends and defeat Voldermort that does not mean that it makes much sense given the plot as it has gone.
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No one ever said that Voldemort would make Harry a horcrux because he had oodles of time and what a trophy. The basis behind the theory is that Voldemort planned to make a 7th horcrux out of something of James and Lilly's (maybe Lilly's wedding ring) after killing them and Harry. After all, he makes horcruxes after important killings. And if Harry was in the prophecy, then it'd be a very important killing. However, the spell backfired, but by performing the murder, the soul was able to split in two and Voldemort sent it part of soul into the only thing he could think of at the time, Harry's body itself.
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How could Voldemort have implanted his soul into anything after having lost his body and been so horribly weakend after failing to kill Harry? Dumbledore already addresses this by stating that yes, Voldermot probably did plan to make a Hoxcrux after killing Harry (killing Lilly and James was hardly special in and of itself) but that instead he did it with Nagili afterwards.
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It may not happen, but it certainly is plausible, and I don't see how Dumbledore would be able to piece it together, even after looking at Harry so long. Unless Filch's secret thingy can detect souls trapped inside. Dumbledore is making guesswork here. He doesn't know when the 7 were made and is even surprised that Voldemort's cave would require a blood sacrifice before entry.
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If X number of readers could come up with the idea just after finishing the book, why would Rowling make it so it failed to occur to Dumbledore?
his surprise at Voldermot was in the crudness of the effort, like is all of a sudden all LoTM posted were long posts of explitives and invectives. After all, it would not take a genius mage like Dumbledore to open that up or even figure it out, probably why someone not of Dumbledore's caliber was able to get the Hoxcrux in the first place
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Nacht
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Amsterdam
May 2002
time: 06:18
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Why not start a new thread and put SPOILER in the title?
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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Originally posted by GePap
spoiler(highlight to read):
Man, all these tags are annoying.Anyways.
No, that prophecy is not that strange- Voldermort believes Harry is his demise, so he believes he has no choice but to kill Harry. Lets remember what Dumbledore says about Voldemort's actions making the prophecy true. It is in the act of caryring it out that it becomes reality-much like in Oedipus.
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But, you have to admit that both are living while both are surviving at the moment. True Voldemort thinks that Harry will come back and kill him, but both are living and surviving. Unless the difference in the words means anything
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Now you revert from shock to surprise? If i suspect I will get a surprise party, I might be surprised about the particualrs, but not that I did get one. As for what people expect, that is an issue of lack of info (the asture reader will see it), not of whether the plot is filled with strange twists and turns. While Harry would efinitelly already act in suicidal ways to help his friends and defeat Voldermort that does not mean that it makes much sense given the plot as it has gone.
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Shock and surprise are similar, most surprises do end up being shocking. Anyway, if you find out about a surprise party that doesn't mean that the party isn't a surprise party anymore. The people throwing it believe it is a surprise to you. I think Rowling intends them as surprise endings and her younger readers may not catch the symbolism of a wise teacher dying. I think Harry dying would fit in with the plot. Missing 7th year means he can't be an auror (IIRC), so what does he do after defeating Voldemort? The only alternative is that Hogwarts is canceled for a year and Harry goes back to complete his schooling with everyone else... of course that screams sequal and I'm not sure Rowling would want that
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How could Voldemort have implanted his soul into anything after having lost his body and been so horribly weakend after failing to kill Harry? Dumbledore already addresses this by stating that yes, Voldermot probably did plan to make a Hoxcrux after killing Harry (killing Lilly and James was hardly special in and of itself) but that instead he did it with Nagili afterwards.
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There is a split second when Voldemort realizes the curse didn't work on the boy and is backfiring. He'd may have tried to force his severed soul (from killing Lily) anywhere and find Harry in front of him. And from what it sounds like, Lily and James were top Aurors, who had helped foil Voldemort in the past
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If X number of readers could come up with the idea just after finishing the book, why would Rowling make it so it failed to occur to Dumbledore?
his surprise at Voldermot was in the crudness of the effort, like is all of a sudden all LoTM posted were long posts of explitives and invectives. After all, it would not take a genius mage like Dumbledore to open that up or even figure it out, probably why someone not of Dumbledore's caliber was able to get the Hoxcrux in the first place
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If X number of readers could have told Harry to use his mirror to speak to Sirius in OotP, why would Harry forget, when he'd been given it by Sirius and would have remembered it best. Because we are a fourth wall that can go back and see what leads up to things. It isn't like horcruxes really stand out, except when made to stand out, like the protection surrounding the locket.
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Nacht
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Amsterdam
May 2002
time: 06:18
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It was obvious from the beginning part with the Unbreakable Oath that Dumbledore would die.
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How so? It wasn't clear what Draco's task was.
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18-07-2005 07:31
ACK!
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