15-07-2005 18:42									#1
	Clinton vs Rockstar Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/0...ws_6129040.html

Summary:

Hillary Clinton found out that there's a "coffee" mod to GTA SA that enables a bit sex to be seen in the game and now she's complaining to Rockstar for making this possible to be made, it's not an adult game afterall


I haven't tried the mod myself so I don't know how much you actually see, but even in the "worst case scenario" I see nothing wrong with this, it's not like the sex scenes are avaliable by just buying the game, you have to manually find it online (it's a mod afterall).
Is it Rockstars fault that this is possible? I don't think so. What if someone makes a mod to SMAC that replaces all wonder videos with hardcore movies and makes it easily avaliable to download. Would that be Firaxis' fault? Or what if someone makes a mod that changes the look of units in Civ3 so they're all doing something dirty in the animations. Would that also be Firaxis' fault?

	15-07-2005 18:59									#2
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Tricky - i just get the feeling there is a growing ground swell in political circles to lay blame at console games feet for the problems of disfunctional kids etc.

I cant see how Rockstar can be held responsible for what a modder does to its game. Still i think game developers and publishers need to examine the motivation behind much of the games they make, and the messages they give out.

If not then it could be the non-computer game playing lawers/politicans that decide the future of gameing. which sucks as much as me having to play another movie tie in game(done badly)

	15-07-2005 19:36									#3
	Suffering from ads?

You can see her breasts.

The guy remains fully clothed, and you can never see the other bits.

	15-07-2005 19:39									#4
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So with other words: Skins to games like The Sims 1/2 are much more adult than this? I still haven't heard anybody complain about the adult possibilities in those games, and aren't they rated teen?

	15-07-2005 20:24									#5
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its not a "mod" in the classic sense. The content was on the disk, and the "mod" just unlocks it. Thats the difference.

	15-07-2005 20:32									#6
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I don't see any difference since it wasn't something that everybody could easily find.
If they had made it to enable it all you had to do was to edit some text file in a line that says (just make it true):
interesting_coffee: false
If that was the case I can understand the complaining.

There's also "nude skins" in The Sims 1/2 included in the game, all you need is some extra file to be able to view it. Not really any difference I'd say

	15-07-2005 20:42									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio I don't see any difference since it wasn't something that everybody could easily find. If they had made it to enable it all you had to do was to edit some text file in a line that says (just make it true): interesting_coffee: false If that was the case I can understand the complaining. There's also "nude skins" in The Sims 1/2 included in the game, all you need is some extra file to be able to view it. Not really any difference I'd say

I dont know about the sims stuff being already in the game. From what ive read rockstar wrote a whole sex minigame (not just some skins), and more or less commented it out. I dont know how hard it was to unlock. But from what I understand they are SUPPOSED to tell ESRB, the rating board, about any questionable content that ships with the game. And they didnt. Its really embarassing to ESRB, which now looks like it cant do what its supposed to do.

	15-07-2005 20:56									#8
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I think Lotm is right about it being an 'unlockable' feature of the game. In which case Rockstar could be in trouble defending itself against the critisism?

	15-07-2005 22:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark its not a "mod" in the classic sense. The content was on the disk, and the "mod" just unlocks it. Thats the difference.

Quite!

Though by all accounts it's not that explicit anyway. Because of the violence it already has a rating right?

	15-07-2005 23:07									#10
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its rated M for the violence. Which mean you must be over 17 to buy it. The sex would make it AO (Adults Only) which means you need to be over 18 to buy it. Which seems like a really trivial difference EXCEPT: Walmart carries M rated games, but does not carry AO rated games. And Walmart is a huge piece of the sales for a mass market game like GTA.

as for explicitness heres how its described on quartertothree (edited for poly community standards)

"The sex mini game is not (abstract) - it's a rhythmn game in which you decide whether or not have a girl bl** you, f*** her up the a**, or do her missionary, and then you pound on the controller buttons in time so you can eventually orgasm all over her. "

From that description (and i can say no more, as ive been warned not to talk about GTA if I havent played it) this seems like its pretty explicit, even if it lacks female nudity. Its not like nude skins for the Sims. Hell, maybe its unamerican to say this, but nudity isnt unhealthy, and isnt always about sex.

Last edited by lord of the mark on 15-07-2005 at 23:19

	15-07-2005 23:52									#11
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Eh, it's commented out or whatever - which means it's still not part of the game, as shipped. It's part of the code - which you have to, voluntarily, modify, to allow it to run.

Therefore, to me, Rockstar is clean. Perhaps not squeaky clean - this should have been deleted not commented - but anyone who can unlock this, can also download a real porn mod for it (if someone made such a thing).

	16-07-2005 02:42									#12
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I disagree. If it you deem this material offensive you have to blame Rockstar for leaving it in, whatever you have to do to unlock it.

	16-07-2005 03:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Eh, it's commented out or whatever - which means it's still not part of the game, as shipped. It's part of the code - which you have to, voluntarily, modify, to allow it to run. Therefore, to me, Rockstar is clean. Perhaps not squeaky clean - this should have been deleted not commented - but anyone who can unlock this, can also download a real porn mod for it (if someone made such a thing).

Exactly... it's not like the players can accidently turn the game into a porn game. If they find a mod and installs it they know what they're getting themselfes into. Who cares if it's in the code or not, as long as it doesn't ship enabled with the game.
I don't see any difference in this and a game where you can mod the game to contain the same level adult content


But why don't game companies just release two versions of the same game? In GTA SA's case this could be the normal M rated game (but this time without the possibility to enable that mini-game) and another version that is AO rated (and clearly says so on the box) that has this option enabled... or at least makes it possible within the game to enable
What's wrong with doing this? This way they can get the best of both worlds

	16-07-2005 10:03									#14
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rockstar just gets attacked because they make gta, which sells loads, which means lots of publicity for politicians. i don't think anyone really cares about anything else.

	16-07-2005 10:29									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio But why don't game companies just release two versions of the same game? In GTA SA's case this could be the normal M rated game (but this time without the possibility to enable that mini-game) and another version that is AO rated (and clearly says so on the box) that has this option enabled... or at least makes it possible within the game to enable What's wrong with doing this? This way they can get the best of both worlds

Could be a great marketi opportunity as well, start out with the regular game, then put out an expansion.

	16-07-2005 13:42									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Adagio Exactly... it's not like the players can accidently turn the game into a porn game. If they find a mod and installs it they know what they're getting themselfes into. Who cares if it's in the code or not, as long as it doesn't ship enabled with the game. I don't see any difference in this and a game where you can mod the game to contain the same level adult content

You don't see the difference between Rockstar leaving this material in the game where it could be easily unlocked and *someone else* actually making and inserting the material?

I'm amazed by a couple of the opinions on this.

	16-07-2005 15:25									#17
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Irresponsible at least. But i'm sure lawers could make it more than that.

I think there is a difference, so i'm with Dr.Spike on this.
From the description that LotM gave, i can only shake my head in dissaprovement. Not because i'm a prude, but i find myself asking 'Why?' - is it an essential part of the game play - and is it really suitable for the kids(minors) that we all know will get to see it or play it, when for example their older sibblings set it up on their copy of GTA.

I think its a blunder by Rockstar.

	16-07-2005 17:12									#18
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I can't believe they wasted programmer-time by including this feature that is at best questionable from a gameplay viewpoint.

I agree that Rockstar was irresponsible for leaving the code in the game where it could be easily unlockable, but honestly - a bit of soft porn in the middle of a game about violence and breaking the law?

	16-07-2005 17:42									#19
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Yes, I am not particularly bothered by it, but I am bothered by people who can't see the difference between someone else adding the content and Rockstar adding it and someone else unlocking it.

	16-07-2005 18:24									#20
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I'm going to say I can't see the difference. Just to bother you.

	16-07-2005 19:45									#22
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Well there's the question of was it planned to be in there, or was it the work of a rogue programmer. SimCopter had a case of thes econd:

quote: SimCopter: a gay old time by Shane Mooney December 11, 1996, 4 p.m. PT Though some are sarcastically calling SimCopter's bikini-clad, kissing men Maxis's greatest publicity stunt to date, the publisher has officially denounced any involvement with programmer Jacques Sevrin or the possibly offensive Easter eggs. In fact, Sevrin has been fired, and Maxis is taking action to eradicate the programmer's brief social statement from the new product. Apparently Sevrin was upset over the heterosexual bias of SimCopter, which features scantily clad women in certain scenes. As a statement, Sevrin decided to put in his own scantily clad men in the game's closing sequence--men who not only kiss one another but also smooch with your character. As it stands, all new versions from here on out will not include the scene. In addition, Maxis plans on releasing a patch to correct Sevrin's hack in the 50,000 units that have already shipped to retail stores. After each successful mission, a marching band usually appears to commemorate the event; however, at the final mission, Sevrin's men take the stage. Beyond some libidinous noises, you will automatically grab and kiss any man you approach. There are also several other Sevrin Easter eggs that appear on certain dates, such as Friday the 13th, September 30 (Sevrin's birthday), and August 22 (his ex-beau's birthday). "On those days, all kinds of things happen," says Sevrin. "There will be boys kissing, there will be a greater number of bimbos, there will be Elvis impersonators. It's really hilarious." While Easter eggs are common in computer games, Will Wright, cofounder of Maxis, says that Sevrin's programming was completely unauthorized. Though the programmers had frequent meetings discussing what to include, Sevrin never mentioned the extracurricular activities that caused his termination. Sevrin and Maxis claim that there's nothing "overtly sexual" about the scenes. That depends on whom you ask. After kissing one of Sevrin's characters, you briefly turn him around, place your hands on his shoulders, and, er, quickly express your affection in other ways, so to speak. Enough about the background, though. What you probably really want to know is how you can see the scene and judge for yourself. Well, it's simple: there are cheat codes that can quickly take you to the end of the game. After loading the game, start a new career. Once you're in the game, turn on the cheat mode by hitting Ctrl-Alt-X. Now type Warp me to career: 29. This will take you to the final level of the game. Now turn on the cheat mode again and type Been there, done that. This completes the game. The men will pop up (so to speak - Bren) and do their thing. Also, the game's closing sequence will begin, but after that's over, you'll be back with the men where you can "experiment" a bit more. To witness the tomfoolery that appears on given days, merely change the dates on your computer. In Windows 95, this can be done by selecting Date/Time in the Control Panel under Settings

	16-07-2005 20:09									#23
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could be that. I know in CTP2 the over worked/underpaid programmers left all sort of nasty, and potentialy embarrasing comments in the game code. It had to all be stripped out before we could use the source code here on poly.
So it could be the work of a 'rouge' programmer(or two).

	16-07-2005 23:16									#24
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They were communists?

	17-07-2005 00:56									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Yes, I am not particularly bothered by it, but I am bothered by people who can't see the difference between someone else adding the content and Rockstar adding it and someone else unlocking it.

But both cases requires someone else to do something that is normally not done, and both cases could basicly end up with the same result

Isn't modifying those files illegal anyway?

	18-07-2005 16:20									#26
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I was hoping that it was George Clinton not Hilary.

	18-07-2005 19:16									#27
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quote: Isn't modifying those files illegal anyway?

-If that were true, then the people who made Counterstrike (which started off as a Mod) should be arrested

Depending on how easy it is to access this built-in-easteregg is, I honestly don't see what's wrong with it since it's
1.) not something easily found.
2.) equivalent to something downloadable from the internet (as spike mentioned)

and as for the sims' question- in the sims 'sex' can occur in the bedroom... and as already mentioned, the naked 'skins' can be used with impunity... so in some ways the Sims is almost as bad as this game since sex is actually built-into the mainstream sims game whereas it's 'under the hood' in GTA.

	18-07-2005 20:25									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't understand how some cartoon/animated breasts are such a big issue in a game about crime, killing and loads of violence.

It seems to be a feature of the modern media that violence and killing in films or TV is ok but sexual references or even swearing is not.

	18-07-2005 20:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud -If that were true, then the people who made Counterstrike (which started off as a Mod) should be arrested

Of course often game companies don't see any reason to arrest the modders. In the case with CS those who made HL got a lot more sales than it would have gotten without CS, going after the modders would be the same as shooting themselfes in the foot

I'm not familiar with the law about this, but I've heard editing game files is illegal... but maybe that rule only applies to exe files? Of course a lot of mods doesn't require any of the original files to be modified

	18-07-2005 21:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud -If that were true, then the people who made Counterstrike (which started off as a Mod) should be arrested Depending on how easy it is to access this built-in-easteregg is, I honestly don't see what's wrong with it since it's 1.) not something easily found. 2.) equivalent to something downloadable from the internet (as spike mentioned) and as for the sims' question- in the sims 'sex' can occur in the bedroom... and as already mentioned, the naked 'skins' can be used with impunity... so in some ways the Sims is almost as bad as this game since sex is actually built-into the mainstream sims game whereas it's 'under the hood' in GTA.

The ESRB rules are that if you include content on the disk, youve got to tell them about it. Doesnt matter if its easily found. The question is intent, and reasonable limits. You CANT hold publishers responsible for every mod thats made, not without eliminating most moddability. You CAN hold them responsible for stuff that THEY code, and that THEY choose to include on a disk.