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Dr Strangelove
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At the current rate how long will it be before virtually everyone in central Iraq has lost a friend or relative to suicide bombers? By then I believe we'll begin seeing people willing to rat out these bastards.
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Winston
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Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:36
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We need to continue with the countermeasures that are already in place, maybe strengthen the law a little here and there on what constitutes aiding and facilitating terrorism - and then we need to work on our own common psyche as "Westerners".
I don't want to seem insensitive, because I'm not, I'm as horrified as anyone upon seeing direct attacks against innocents, but I do think we need to get a sense of proportion on these attacks. They dominate the entire agenda of foreign politics, and much of the domestic issues debate as well. And I don't think they should succeed in taking over our entire collective "mind" and concerns. There are so many other things affecting the majority of people's lives and welfare far more directly, than terrorism.
I can't help but comparing the "enemy" we've painted out for ourselves now to the one I remember all too well from the Cold War. Now there was a conflict, of systems, of ideologies, of values, very few things during those days to bring us together, and almost every single aspect and condition of human life seemed to separate us. Those were whole continents split up along political divisions and locked in what seemed an eternal staredown based on the very real threat of mutual, and total, extermination.
And here we have an indeterminable number of fanatics, most likely in the thousands, who by their statements, their beliefs system, their occasional actions manage to "hijack" what hundreds of millions of people concern themselves with the most, eventhough we're a thousand times more likely to suffer injury or death from being in traffic than from the gruesome actions of the terrorists. At the height of the Cold War, during the early 1980's - admittedly by my own personal estimations - it seemed the threat from being in traffic was about on par with that from nuclear annihilation.
Something is awkward about this picture. I can't help thinking there must be some centrally positioned people who should know better than to allow an entire culture like ours to project so much fear and concern into what is basically the violent political campaign of a very limited group of people. We had political terrorism in the 1970's and 80's as well. Back then it was radical Socialist groups and others who set off bombs and killed people, took hostages and killed them, in Western Germany and Italy, France and other places. But there were other, more pressing and more present concerns dominating the political agenda back then. And that's the case today also, we just need to start realising it.
[/rant]
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shawnmmcc
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Dr. Stranglove - look at my thread of just letting the Iraqis have a Civil War. The Sunnis very stupidly started Death Squad activity, and even with Sistani telling the Shia no reprisals - there is some quite bloody ***-for-tat retaliatory killings going on. The bombings are just fanning the Shia hatred. Since the Shia have twice the numbers - and what passes for a government - the outcome is not at all in doubt. Maybe if we get lucky that will start another Shia/Sunni war accross the Middle East - maybe Molly can give us how many there have been - and they will be so busy in slaughter as to mostly leave the West alone. It will be just a little bit rough on the innocent civilian populations, though. Sort of like the third biggest war in casualty numbers of the 20th century, Iran-Iraq. People forget that.
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mrmitchell
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Of those London bombers that have been identified, what have their families said? I don't think any have said they had any indication at all that the bomber could have ever been a terrorist. Kaak I think many bombers' families are as surprised by an attack as the victims are.
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Vanguard
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Monster Island
Apr 1999
time: 05:36
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If your brother commited an act of terrorism, would you want to be punished for it?
Right. Enough said.
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mrmitchell
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quote:
The priests would rationalize it awy, by saying that anything done by the infidels doesn't count in Allah's eyes or something. |
Spiffor is correct. IIRC suicide bombers are already dumping all over the Koran but it's ok! because they are in a JIHAD. Principles come second to the jihad.
Kaak, the problem is not suicide bombing. Suicide bombing is a symptom of the problem. The problem is the state that the middle east is in. We must attack the causes of the problem to fix it.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Dr. Stranglove - look at my thread of just letting the Iraqis have a Civil War. The Sunnis very stupidly started Death Squad activity, and even with Sistani telling the Shia no reprisals - there is some quite bloody ***-for-tat retaliatory killings going on. The bombings are just fanning the Shia hatred. Since the Shia have twice the numbers - and what passes for a government - the outcome is not at all in doubt. Maybe if we get lucky that will start another Shia/Sunni war accross the Middle East - maybe Molly can give us how many there have been - and they will be so busy in slaughter as to mostly leave the West alone. It will be just a little bit rough on the innocent civilian populations, though. Sort of like the third biggest war in casualty numbers of the 20th century, Iran-Iraq. People forget that. |
Yes I think they're headed for a civil war. One way out of Iraq would be to just re-arm the Shia and Kurdish militias and let them pacify central Iraq as they see fit.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:36
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We are basically looking at the same question if guerilla war can be stopped. No it can't be. That's the whole point of the guerilla tactics, and that's why it is effective in its own way and intimidating to anyone no matter size and strength. The longer the conflict goes, the worse it gets. Experience and long lasting situations is something that feeds them, not the other one.
They just have that small but burning light on everyones ass for as long as it takes, to the bitter end. They can't really effectively do big damages on short periods of time, but they can lower the morals of their enemy, and just wear them out to a point when it gets ugly, and then it's one on one.
Also, playing the game of hearts and minds is extremely difficult when facing local guerillas. They can play the carrot and stick way more effectively. To underestimate this ability and the fact that it can't be stopped is a road to failure for sure.
It's necessary evil. It has to be taken, but not accepted. THey have to be fought, searched and destroyed, but most likely they are the hunters. But it's what happens in most conflicts. It's not like this is something new. Except this time it's terrorists mixed with some other groups of fighting forces, a weird combo. Mostly terrorists though. I feel they might be a little more easy target than traditioanl guerillas. I feel they have weakness that guerillas don't have, and that is the strong ****ed up fundie inside them that blocks some of the blood going on to the brain, making them not protect themselves enough and stay hidden and quiet and be smart.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:36
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Yes. But that's not an easy task. By the way it is going now, it's never going to happen. But.. who knows, maybe things will turn around, a good day will come, some luck, and things change. But yes... also, I'm talking about organized guerillas, not some half assed criminals or some forrest guys who have some weird weapons and that stuff.. I'm talking about very organized, trained troops, and I mean troops, not the ones in Iraq. Even though they can't be underestimated either, since they are able to do damage as we know. I wouldn't exactly put IRA and the company to that list of very good troops.
So yeah.. take the support out.. But let's not mix guerillas, organized and trained guerillas (in here guerillas are SF, not some old bad teeth dudes) and terrorists and criminals. But who ever the entity is, local ones dictate the minds of the locals way more easier, be it stick if not carrot.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:36
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The Germans in WW2 had an officer whacked in...Yugoslavia? Anyway, they went and exterminated the town where it happened, killed em all, the murdering scum. That said, they never had any more trouble in that town.
Life sucks.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:36
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The Israeli policy of destroying the homes of the bombers actually worked. Not 100% of course, but terrorist attacks declined significantly after the gloves were removed during March/April of 2002.
There were even a number of instances in which the families of the would be bombers turned them in to Israeli forces, fearing reprisal.
Source:
http://www1.idf.il/dover/site/mainp...&docid=37572.EN
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:36
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Eli, that's my point. Brutality works, but then we're the same as the Germans. However, the Israeli answer of bulldozing the houses and leaving the people scratching their asses and wondering what happened, much better. A humane approach to a messy problem.
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17-07-2005 17:57
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