21-07-2005 04:34									#211
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quote: ...and kaak got table that set you **** straight

Except Kaak's tables are meaningless. Basically you're comparing the best students in Europe and elsewhere with the average american student. Of course americans will perform worse. However, when compared to specialized u.s. schools, the equivalent of European gymnasiums, americans perform as well or even better than theit European and Japanese counterparts.
The data wrt U.S, universities vs. foreign unis is just as skewed, due to different methods of instruction. FE, Japanese take rigorous testing to get into college and few are accepted, once in the students do very little work compared to americans. Americans are enrolled with much more lax standards but will receive a lot more homework, assignments, and testing. Weeding out is done in the 1st 2 1/2 years of college. By the time both graduate they will be approximately on par, while the results of those seeking even higher education will favor americans.

	21-07-2005 04:42									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist As for black history and the like, the very idea is crap. If normal history education is one-sided or unbalanced, the solution is to rectify that, not teaching additional one-sided and unbalanced versions of history.

I'm sorry but you're painfully wrong. The point is to teach specialized history, not lopsided. There's way too much information out there that is considered 'historical' to fit into any one class. Personally I feel it's too generalized already. If I was a teacher I'd cram the stupid **** that the kids need for the memory testing in the 1st part of the semester and then spend the rest of it on a very short but thoroughly descriptive span of time, around some subjects that the students chose.

	21-07-2005 04:42									#213
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I haven't read the past few pages, but I'm suprised JCC is still trying to play his racism card. The black friends I've had would probably beg to differ in his calling me a racist...

	21-07-2005 04:43									#214
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Theben...you didn't even check the link did you? tisk tisk...maybe you should make sure you know what you are talking about next time

quote: PISA assesses how far students near the end of compulsory education have acquired some of the knowledge and skills that are essential for full participation in society. In all cycles, the domains of reading, mathematical and scientific literacy are covered not merely in terms of mastery of the school curriculum, but in terms of important knowledge and skills needed in adult life. In the PISA 2003 cycle, an additional domain of problem solving was introduced to continue the examination of cross-curriculum competencies.

The survey wasn't done by an american organization, and was no way centered or focused on americans. it was a broad survey of many countries, unbiased, not trying to prove anything

	21-07-2005 04:43									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Except Kaak's tables are meaningless. Basically you're comparing the best students in Europe and elsewhere with the average american student. Of course americans will perform worse. However, when compared to specialized u.s. schools, the equivalent of European gymnasiums, americans perform as well or even better than theit European and Japanese counterparts.

Gymnasia are not necessarily elitist. In Sweden, over 90% go to one, and we still outproform American HSers on most measures.

	21-07-2005 04:44									#216
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Oh NOES!!1! The "I have black friends" card has been dealt!11!\1!! Run away!!

* Theben runs away

	21-07-2005 04:46									#217
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Specialized history courses, other than maybe general american history, should not be taught in compulsory education. In the university setting, sure, but it is far more important to have an understanding of world history and national history than to have a class focused on the history of ANY subset of the population.

	21-07-2005 04:46									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Gymnasia are not necessarily elitist. In Sweden, over 90% go to one, and we still outproform American HSers on most measures.

90% of all HSers or 90% of all children of HS age?

	21-07-2005 04:47									#219
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs I haven't read the past few pages, but I'm suprised JCC is still trying to play his racism card. The black friends I've had would probably beg to differ in his calling me a racist...

I'm sorry, but everybody who plays the "I've got [insert minority] friends" card automatically loses. JCC is hereby pwned you.

	21-07-2005 04:47									#220
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I really love it when people try to play their personal Minority card against me. Gay Minority beats all other minority cards except for the Fat Card (though, the majority of USAmericans are at least somewhat overweight).

	21-07-2005 04:47									#221
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LC: on every measure that was measured

	21-07-2005 04:48									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Theben 90% of all HSers or 90% of all children of HS age?

Over 90% of children of HS age.

	21-07-2005 04:48									#223
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and theben, if the majority of the european population goes to better schools, that kinda proves my point don't you think??? thank you.

	21-07-2005 04:49									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Specialized history courses, other than maybe general american history, should not be taught in compulsory education. In the university setting, sure, but it is far more important to have an understanding of world history and national history than to have a class focused on the history of ANY subset of the population.

Except that most students don't leave understanding history at all. They at best leave with a set of useless facts of what happened when, w/o understanding WHY or all the factors involved. At worst they leave w/o learning anything.

	21-07-2005 04:49									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I'm sorry, but everybody who plays the "I've got [insert minority] friends" card automatically loses. JCC is hereby pwned you.

But he keeps talking like we're all whitebread honkies who's only exposure to black people is through television and maple syrup bottles. Where's the pwnage?

	21-07-2005 04:51									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Theben I'm sorry but you're painfully wrong. The point is to teach specialized history, not lopsided.

Why, then, is the standard argument for Black history that normal history education marginalizes Black achievements and contributions?

	21-07-2005 04:52									#227
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Theben: so, you are saying our schools are doing a poor job? hmmm...me too

	21-07-2005 04:52									#228
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs But he keeps talking like we're all whitebread honkies who's only exposure to black people is through television and maple syrup bottles. Where's the pwnage?

He provoked you into making a major fool out of yourself.

	21-07-2005 04:54									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Theben...you didn't even check the link did you? tisk tisk...maybe you should make sure you know what you are talking about next time

Didn't have to. I've heard this song-and-dance before. I'll check my sources later and get back to you.

	21-07-2005 04:56									#230
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Wait, pointing out that he's mistakenly assuming that most of us have had little or no contact with non-white ethnicities constitutes making a fool out of myself? Have you read this thread? And I'm the fool?

	21-07-2005 04:56									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Theben: so, you are saying our schools are doing a poor job? hmmm...me too

I'm saying that they could do a much better job. However for those going on to higher education they seem to have done just fine.

	21-07-2005 04:57									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Why, then, is the standard argument for Black history that normal history education marginalizes Black achievements and contributions?

Because it does?

	21-07-2005 05:01									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Because it does?

Thanks for conceding the point.

	21-07-2005 05:03									#234
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Speaking of fools, check out the Guns, Germs, and Steel thread. Guess who's back...

	21-07-2005 05:07									#235
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs I haven't read the past few pages, but I'm suprised JCC is still trying to play his racism card. The black friends I've had would probably beg to differ in his calling me a racist...

, I'm not discounting you. It just always amuses me when people say they have black friends.

I, for one have no black friends. I do not need to prove my non-racism to you all. I know what I am. I don't need black friends to prove I'm not a racist.

	21-07-2005 05:08									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Except Kaak's tables are meaningless. Basically you're comparing the best students in Europe and elsewhere with the average american student. Of course americans will perform worse. However, when compared to specialized u.s. schools, the equivalent of European gymnasiums, americans perform as well or even better than theit European and Japanese counterparts.

False.
Gymnasiums (which aren't spread everywhere in Europe if I may add. I don't think it's anywhere else than in germanic Europe, and Germany scored poorly) are not elite highschools, they're highschools for general education. They have a technical/vocational counterpart.

Most European systems are actually much less compartimented than the German one. Finland, the best result overall, does not compartiment its education before a fairly old age. The Finnish result is what you get in an average Finnish high school.

Unlike the Yanks, the Germans saw their poor grades for what they are: a terrible blow to their self-image. To my foreign eyes, the PISA study looked like a trauma in Germany. Unsurprisingly, arrogant nationas (France and the US) said "nothing to see here" and moved along.

	21-07-2005 05:21									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Didn't have to. I've heard this song-and-dance before. I'll check my sources later and get back to you.

	21-07-2005 05:22									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Thanks for conceding the point.

If your point was that teaching lop-sided history is bad, then I agreed with you from the get-go. If your point was that teaching history with a focal point is bad (which is what I read) then you're way off.

	21-07-2005 05:27									#239
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I guess it's difficult for Theben to realize he graduated from 3rd world school...

Hey, when you have 99% or more reading and writing ability in your .. let's make it easier, state.. heck even more easy, in city.. heck, district.. come back and debate more. They also got owned in math etc etc etc. FACTS.

'ohh but but but' stop crying. No one cares. j00r 2 stopid & so is j00r fr1nds. And unlike in there, we don't train for POS test like SATs. But more like what you need to know when doing these subjects. FACTS.

Get over it or commit a suicide, either one is cool with me.

	21-07-2005 05:29									#240
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Are we playing a card game?

* Q Cubed plays the "I only got one black friend card"!