20-07-2005 05:44									#121
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quote: Now, guys. You've all been utterly thrashed by me single handedly, and also made yourselves look like a bunch of culturally insensitive racists. I suggest this end now.

quote: "Y'all" and "ain't" are proper contractions. Stop oppressing my culture!

Until dees' are taughtin public schools I reckon' dis' discrimi nation will continue.

Dis' will have to do for naw...Diction Guide to the South

quote: BUB (noun) an incandescent lamp Usage: "The lite bub done burned out agin'." JEW (contraction) Short form of "did" and "you" Usage: "Jew hear that my brother got a job with that bobbed war fence cump'ny ?" RAT NOW (adverb) immediately Usage: "I sed go git 'em boy, rat now." YURP (proper noun) A continent Usage: "We'ems a-savin' fur a trip to Yurp."

	20-07-2005 05:49									#122
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I don't know why people so hate Black English Vernacular, except maybe for the Black part.

I have spoken to people whose BEV was so thick I couldn't understand what the hell they were saying, even to the point of him asking me if I understood English (to which I sais Yes, now would you speak some).

So many people seem like it's a personal insult that they don't do everything just like you. Yet we claim to value individuality.

	20-07-2005 05:51									#123
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@Imran & Co: Since they're not removing standard English, where's the harm? Do you think that reading books in AAVE will somehow magically prevent them from speaking standard when the occasion demands it?

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Its about building awareness and creating a proud and unique cultural identity.

Divide and rule

	20-07-2005 05:55									#124
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That's the funny part of dialects

I have often been in sweden and don't have many problems understanding them, but they seems not to be able to understand danish - guess that they have been on their own hand just a little too long. It's quite awkward that you have to speak english to a swede if you want them to understand what you say .

	20-07-2005 07:56									#125
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Who was the idiot calling Ebonics a "foreign language." It is definitely a separate and recognized dialect of American Standard English, but that does not make it a "foreign language." It would be like teaching a separate language course called "British English" in America.

I can understand incorporating an understanding of Vernacular African-American into regular English classes, but a separate language? Horseshit.

	20-07-2005 07:59									#126
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quote: Who was the idiot calling Ebonics a "foreign language." It is definitely a separate and recognized dialect of American Standard English, but that does not make it a "foreign language." It would be like teaching a separate language course called "British English" in America.

British English is comprehensible.

	20-07-2005 08:21									#127
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quote: Come on guys, I know we're sheltered here on Poly, but lets be serious for a minute. Are you really trying to tell me that you've never left your neighborhood, never been anywhere where people speak English differently than you? Its a great big world out there, guys. There's room enough for everyone.

If they could be understood then there would be no need for 'ebonics-texts'

	20-07-2005 08:46									#128
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I'm all for cultural genocide in our situation.

That said, I think the "standardization" argument (official languages, etc.) is pretty weak. Better to go with the "we know what's good for them" tack.

Last edited by DanS on 20-07-2005 at 08:53

	20-07-2005 10:13									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist @Imran & Co: Since they're not removing standard English, where's the harm? Do you think that reading books in AAVE will somehow magically prevent them from speaking standard when the occasion demands it?

The harm is in teaching dialect spellings as they are ok to be used in the working world. Even in the South, you'd be laughed out of the office if you wrote "y'all" on an official memo or something. It isn't ok in the business environment and therefore shouldn't be taught. No dialects are taught in the public schools (and the only place you'd ever see it is in a Literature course), why should Ebonics?

	20-07-2005 11:23									#130
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Because there was slavery 150 years ago.

	20-07-2005 12:13									#131
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Jimmy: The situation is this. Americans are some of the worst educated people in the modern world. We are deficitent in math, languages, history, geography, etc etc etc. Spending valuable class time, in a precollegiate situation, on something like ebonics is a complete and total waste of resources and time. Cultural education should come second to the foundations of knowledge which are absolutely essential for being a thriving, productive member of society. This proposal is assinine.

	20-07-2005 12:25									#132
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I'd have no problem with people studying "ebonics" or other American dialects as part of an introduction to linguistics. I would have enjoyed something like that myself and I think many people would benefit from it.

I do have a problem with public schools using class time and public resources to cater to any particular minority culture's perceived need to have their self-esteem raised. Not only is such a program likely to fail in this objective, but experience of several decades of such programs at the college level seems to indicate that in fact tensions between cultures are likely to be exacerbated and that the level of scholarship produced by such programs will likely be exceedingly poor.

	20-07-2005 13:28									#133
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Standard English and Ebonics versus French and German are apples and oranges.

You don't understand. I do speak German. It's just that my German is heavily accented and that it is hesitant.

I can communicate without any significant hindrance with my German-speaking hierarchy, but the language demands of the customers are quite a bit higher. As a result, I'm barred from a great many jobs that involve a "perfect" German (That's how the job-suppliers put it, when they clearly require a native German).

I think that somebody who exclusively speaks Ebonics will have an English skill about as good as my own skill in German. I.e. an obstacle that considerably reduces opportunities. If you want to be so ivory tower that you prefer thinking of the ebonics culture over the actual future of these kids, go ahead. But don't call us names for putting these kid's future over somecultural feelgood.

	20-07-2005 17:41									#134
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Why is there an assumption by so many people that this means that standard American Enlish will no longer be taught?

	20-07-2005 17:45									#135
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why is there an assumption by so many people that this means that standard American Enlish will no longer be taught?

I'm still not clear on why Ebonics should be taught and not Creationism?

	20-07-2005 17:46									#136
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Come on guys, I know we're sheltered here on Poly, but lets be serious for a minute. Are you really trying to tell me that you've never left your neighborhood, never been anywhere where people speak English differently than you? Its a great big world out there, guys. There's room enough for everyone.

Somehow I feel you're the one who needs to get out more.

Now would you please finally answer this simple question, as you've gone back and forth: are speakers of Ebonics able to articulate themselves clearly and thoughtfully to others in the English-speaking world, or not?

In the 5 years I spent managing an "inner-city" restaurant, I never encountered a single speaker of Ebonics who was not able to communicate effectively with me. There were a few who I would have advised to prop up their linguistic skills if they wanted to enter a job field requiring good communication skills. I can't ever recall a time when someone's language skills were so bad that he/she needed a course in a 2nd language to communicate, other than Hispanics and one Iranian woman.

Want to make it part of a high school african-american history class? Fine, go ahead. Want to make it available at the college level, or extracurricular course that they pay for? No problem. Otherwise you've yet to convince me of it's worth.

	20-07-2005 17:48									#137
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm still not clear on why Ebonics should be taught and not Creationism?

Ebonics isn't a religion.

	20-07-2005 17:49									#138
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Creationism is part of Christian culture and heritage, and teaching that would help people feel good about their culture

	20-07-2005 17:50									#139
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Exactly.

	20-07-2005 17:52									#140
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Christians, as a group, aren't being failed by the school system at alarming rates. Besides, given how smug Christians are, we don't need them to feel any better about themselves. They're insufferable enough as it is.

	20-07-2005 17:53									#141
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Tubbem must be the smart one.

	20-07-2005 17:54									#142
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Compared to you?

	20-07-2005 17:55									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Christians, as a group, aren't being failed by the school system at alarming rates.

Why are you arguing that the system should actively seek ways to fail blacks then?

	20-07-2005 17:58									#144
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Tubbem must be the smart one.

Bleh, don't agree with me. I can see some value in the idea. I just think that the resources involved would be best utilized elsewhere.

	20-07-2005 18:01									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Bleh, don't agree with me.

	20-07-2005 18:04									#146
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It's not like the school system is doing such a hot job right now. Given the drop out rates and poor education many Blacks have right now, doing the same thing isn't really an acceptable option.

Curricula that are centered around trying to make marginalized students take pride in their culture, and thus themselves, have resulted in some improvment in students scores.

Internalized racism necessitates that instilling a sense of selfworth in students is necessary in order to get them to perform. Study after study shows that if you think you suck, you will suck, and that if you think you rock, you will do better than those who don't.

	20-07-2005 18:22									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Theben I can see some value in the idea. I just think that the resources involved would be best utilized elsewhere.

Exactly. Aside from the monetary cost, it's not like 30minutes (or however long) gets magically added to the school day. What class gets sacraficed for ebonics? Art/Music class? PE? If those are already gone then what?

quote: Internalized racism necessitates that instilling a sense of selfworth in students is necessary in order to get them to perform.

What if a hispanic child relocates and attends that school? Shouldn't she be taught selfworth with her Spanglish?

Here's an idea, we could have a "Feel Good" Culture class! And it can include art, music and history. There is no reason or benefit to focus specifically on this small subset of culture.

Edit:
Correction, hispanic kids will likely already be in the class...

quote: Blacks make up the second largest racial group in the district, trailing Latinos.

Why are the Latinos and their "it's OK to be latino" culture being ignored? Last I checked they needed better performance too.

	20-07-2005 18:30									#148
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That won't work. The idea is that the negative images of sterotypes need to be combatted. Learning about their culture from a standpoint of it having value rather than it being something to be denigrated is seriously helpful.

I personally think it doesn't go far enough, but even a little improvement is better than none. And let's face it, those opposing this aren't trying to replace it with something better, fuller, and more usefull. They're just trying to uphold the failing status quo.

	20-07-2005 18:32									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew Why are the Latinos and their "it's OK to be latino" culture being ignored? Last I checked they needed better performance too.

Cuz it's California and they are prevented by law from doing so because of the English-only anti-immigrant movement.

	20-07-2005 18:34									#150
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cuz it's California and they are prevented by law from doing so because of the English-only anti-immigrant movement.

Why are they able to have an Ebonics class then?