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Winston is offline Winston
King
Danmark
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
Exclamation  Old Post 20-07-2005 15:19
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Killer Mice Gang Up On Sea Birds Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote:
Mice gang up on endangered birds

Attacks on albatrosses seem to be a learned behaviour.


On one of the Earth's most remote islands, mice have learned, and are apparently teaching each other, how to attack and kill bird chicks that are 200 times their size.

Far from exulting in the cleverness of mice, the researchers who discovered this want to eradicate the rodents from the island in order to save endangered albatrosses.

Biologists on Gough Island, a speck in the Atlantic between the southern tips of Africa and South America, first learned of the problem when they found that tristan albatrosses (Diomedea dabbenena) were losing their chicks at an extremely high rate: up to 80% were dying.

Researchers suspected that house mice, which were accidentally introduced to the island, might be the culprits. So husband-and-wife team Ross Wanless and Andrea Angel spent a year on the island videotaping birds' nests and collecting data.

Pick on someone your own size

The videos confirm that mice are taking on the chicks, biting them over and over until they die from loss of blood or infection. Wanless, an invasive-species biologist from the Percy FitzPatrick Institute of African Ornithology at the University of Cape Town, South Africa, vividly recalls watching the first videos. "It was carnage. Chicks half alive, with massive gaping wounds and guts hanging out."

The mice are able to defeat the much larger birds by biting the same spot over and over (see video). They take advantage of the fact that the birds, which have evolved in an area that has been without land predators for millions of years, have no defensive response against such attacks.

The results were presented this week at the annual meeting for the Society for Conservation Biology in Brasília, Brazil.

Trained killers

Wanless was surprised by the results. Such behaviour is unprecedented in mice, he says. And, oddly, the attacks only take place on some of the island's peaks, despite the fact that the mice live everywhere on the island.

The research duo chose two sites for further inspection that had radically different death rates for chicks. They found the same vegetation, altitude, slope, numbers of mice and albatross nests at each site. But one group of mice attacked chicks and the other did not. From this the team infers that the attack is a learned behaviour.

The transmission of learned skills from one generation to the next is a relatively rare phenomenon, and not one seen in mice in the wild before. The researchers note that it is particularly surprising in this case because only a few mice from each brood would be expected to live through a winter.

Wanless and Angel are now determined to save the albatrosses by removing the mice. But they warn that similar attacks might be threatening other bird species.

"This is probably not unique to Gough," says Wanless. "It is just that nobody has looked."


Article from news(at)nature.com. And here's the link to the video, which I myself can't get to work, maybe others will have better luck. It's 10 MB in size.

So did the dreaded killer rabbit somehow serve as an inspiration to these murderous mice, or is it just that baby albatros tastes like chicken? We may never know for sure..

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 17:02
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No defensive response to pain stimuli? And even though these mice are a recent edition to the island's inhabitants and they've already learned predator behaviour, these birds still haven't figured out that maybe they should peck at things causing them pain? Evolution has already found a solution to this problem. Let nature take its course with these birds...

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 17:12
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I saw the video:
Nighttime shot of a dozen or so mice attacking a nesting bird. It fidgets a little, even gets up at one point only to sit back down, but largely oblivious to the mice.

PECK AT THE LITTLE ****ERS, YOU STUPID BIRD!!1

reds4ever is offline reds4ever
Prince
of the Spion Kop
Mar 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 17:22
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This is obviously a hoax! "Andrea Angel" is a porn star name!

Winston is offline Winston
King
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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 17:32
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We can't rule out entirely that the albatrosses may simply be too occupied with academic interests to take any serious action against the mice. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time it's happened.

Attachment: ikke-navngivet.jpg
This has been downloaded 258 time(s).

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 18:08
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quote:
The videos confirm that mice are taking on the chicks, biting them over and over until they die from loss of blood or infection. Wanless, an invasive-species biologist from the Percy FitzPatrick Institute of African Ornithology at the University of Cape Town, South Africa, vividly recalls watching the first videos. "It was carnage. Chicks half alive, with massive gaping wounds and guts hanging out."




And I agree with togglecaps: if they're that stupid, let 'em die.

Verto is offline Verto

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Mar 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 18:21
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Annihilate the ugly rats. It would be one thing if they were natural inhabitants of the island, but since they were introduced by man, they have no claim to life there.

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 18:39
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And why is that? Is not man part of nature as well? What's the difference between a family of mice coming over on ships and a family of them coming on a piece of debris that was blown into the ocean by a hurricane?

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:07
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I recognize that this appears to be the first evidence of the evil nature of mice but, as someone who has handled and killed thousands of the bastards, its no surprise to me.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:15 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Mice are cute.

Verto is offline Verto

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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:16
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
And why is that? Is not man part of nature as well? What's the difference between a family of mice coming over on ships and a family of them coming on a piece of debris that was blown into the ocean by a hurricane?


Ok, I'll be honest. The bird is just cuter than the ugly mice.

Combat Ingrid is offline Combat Ingrid
Chieftain
Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:22
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quote:
Originally posted by SpencerH
I recognize that this appears to be the first evidence of the evil nature of mice but, as someone who has handled and killed thousands of the bastards, its no surprise to me.


Same here. Vicious bastards, kill'em all

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:24 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
And why is that? Is not man part of nature as well? What's the difference between a family of mice coming over on ships and a family of them coming on a piece of debris that was blown into the ocean by a hurricane?


I'm not so sure I can agree with you here. Ever since humans have created civilization, we have increasingly separated ourselves from nature. So much so, that today we are more completely separated from the natural world than ever before due to our advanced technology.

We're no longer part of the natural predator-prey food chain, in spite of the occassional attack by a shark, bear, cougar, tiger or what have you. Such predatory attacks are the exception, not the rule with humans.

reds4ever is offline reds4ever
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Mar 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:27
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If you need to qualify "completely" then you are using the word incorrectly

Last edited by reds4ever on 20-07-2005 at 19:41

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:29 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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We are a product of nature, thus we are natural, thus our activies are a result of nature. What other's call nature is in fact, unspoilt nature. We like to defend unspoilt nature for two reasons: we like the idea of there being wild places and a damaged environment can hurt us. The second is the most important of the two, and the only thing that will, ultimately, save the wild places.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:31 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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We're part the ecology no doubt, Che.

Reds is right -- I shouldn't have used the word "completely." Even though we're removed from the predator-prey food chain, we are not completely removed from the ecological system of the planet because we could not live without plants and animals in way of food and oxygen-carbon dioxide exchange.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 19:35 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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We aren't removed from the preditor-prey relationships with other animals, we're just far, far better at it. We prey on many different types of species. We're just cleverer than most preditors, in that we confine our prey and breed it to ensure a ready source of food. We also are better at removing rival preditors from our niche, so we don't have to share. The problem is our niche has become global. In addition, we are more successful prey for similar reasons.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 20:10 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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I agree, let the mice stay. This is a facinating development.

As for the fact that they were introduced by man and thus "unnatural" BS. Man, as has been said, is a part of the world's ecosystem, and since our very first emergence in the jungles of Africa we have been affecting the environment around us. This is actually natural.

If we attempted to revert every change we've made to animals and plants over our long history the planet would be unrecognizable. We should just eliminate all dogs and cats, creatures we've created and customized over centuries. All the crops and farm animals that our ancestors brought with them as they migrated from place to place.

Heck, the "native" americans aren't native here either, we should demand that all people in north and south america leave. Indian and European alike. Plus take back horses and wheat, and everything else.

It is ridiculous to try and seperate us from nature. We ARE nature. As Che said, we are just better at it than everyone else.

Of course we should be careful from here on out on how we introduce plants/animals into non-native environments, but its too late to backtrack.

Our attempts to "fix" the environment can cause more problems than fixes. Like our attempts to stop forest fires in the United States. Forests are supposed to burn down. They are quick, take out the underbrush, and give the old trees more chances to grow. By stopping the fires we are creating more underbrush, so eventually a fire does occur that catches to quick, and too intense and we can't stop it. Thus it takes down all the old trees, and some of our homes as well. But, but, some of those fires were started by campers, they are unnatural and must be stopped! No. We usually make an even bigger mess when we try to help. Just do our best not to screw things up in the first place, but if an accident happens, just leave it alone (unless its an oil spill or toxic waste dump or something major of course).

Traianvs is offline Traianvs
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Belgium, land of plenty (corruption)
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 21:31
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Uhm you're right about the underbrush fires, but very often they're big fires that demolish the entire forest instead of the underbrush. If you can't do something about that a lot of land will be laid waste, and nature will not be able to recover that easily.
They're not "natural" fires so they shouldn't be there; nature is not prepared for those. In fact nature isn't prepared for us humans either, I'd rather have a few billion of us removed but well that won't happen anyway

I think you have no idea of what you're talking about Ozzy. Exotics can devastate nature when released in an entirely different environment. If you say that because they are alive and organic'n stuff, this means they are nature then you're just wrong. Nature is all about balance; if one species is starting to dominate like modern humans, nature as a whole is ****ed up, species not accustomed to the exotics will be powerless, and all the plants/animals etc that have a symbiotic or other relation to the animals that are being outcompeted will face the same consequences. It's a domino effect that is hard to stop. It's not because there are some trees and some birds that you can call that 'nature'

Besides, there's hardly a way that a colony of exotics could travel thousands of kilometres, oceans etc to settle down in completely unknown territory. That just doesn't happen. Saying animals should simply die because they are defenseless against imported species is a mind-boggingly stupid thing to say.
Nature is very fragile, even though there are many possibilities for it to keep the balance, but if the **** hits the fan, then it's hard to go back to a more healthier situation (an unbalanced nature situation is bad for just about.. everyone living in it, except possibly humans because they can import everything they need and have fewer direct relations with nature anymore)

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Apr 1999
time: 05:37
  Old Post 20-07-2005 21:46
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Give the island to the French for nuke testing. This will get rid of the mice for attacking the birds, and the birds for being too stupid to live.

Actually I'm on the side of the birds on this one, and though I doubt mice can be eradicated from the island, I'm in favor of massive tax increases to try.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 22:04 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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Traianvs many "domestics" we come to accept today were once "exoctics" brought over by us or some other cause.

How did animals end up in every corner of the world? Because for some natural reason or another they found themselves in unfamiliar territory and had to adapt. Did that at times have negative consequences for native species? Sure. Did sometimes the outsider species die out in the new territory? Sure.

Isn't that evolution?

Look at Darwin and the island he wrote about. How did all the critters get there? It wasn't from humans. If it happened there, obviously it happened all over the world. from many different causes. Humans are just one of those many causes.

Its a phenomena that has happened because of and in spite of humans for as long as there has been life on this planet. We cannot run from the spreading around of plant and animal species. That is how evolution occurs.

The article above seems to clearly indicate this. Those mice may very well be evolving right in front of us. Adapting to new circumstances and taking on new traits and behavior unseen elsewhere. If they can change, then so can the albatross. They learned to attack, the birds can learn to defend.

Nature finds a way.

Geronimo is offline Geronimo
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Traianvs
In fact nature isn't prepared for us humans either, I'd rather have a few billion of us removed but well that won't happen anyway


What good do all these human extinction advocates think would come of our removal from the planet? The individual animals on the planet would be just as miserable overall without us as they are with us. Nature has no value except that which we choose to give to it, or which other individual creatures give to it. What evidence do you have that if we were gone other creatures would find the world more preferable in our absence?

St Leo is offline St Leo
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Jul 2005
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 23:33 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Get rid of the mice.

The idea that we should keep them is bizarre. We introduced them, so we are fully within our rights to remove them.

Letting them wipe out albatrosses would be wasteful. Albatrosses are useful, or may become useful in the future. Yes, at some point, it became evolutionary advantageous for albatross chicks to not waste energy looking out for predators because they had no predators. They put that energy to better use.

Several small islands in the Mediterranean have turned to inhospitable rock because we introduced goats to them. The goats promptly ate every last bit of vegetation and then starved to death.

Australia has had a huge problem with out of control rabbits.

Dodos were wiped out by feral domestic cats.

Let's not screw up again just for the sake of some misguided social "Darwinist" prescriptive morality.

Tuberski is offline Tuberski
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 23:47 Visit Tuberski's homepage!
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You would think that if the mice on one side of the island learned to attack albatrosss chicks and the mice on the other side didn't, the albatross would learn nest on the side where the mice don't attack them.

ACK!

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 20-07-2005 23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
Let's not screw up again just for the sake of some misguided social "Darwinist" prescriptive morality.


Screw up? Hmmm, albatrosses or mice... I really don't care, so why bother?

Barinthus is offline Barinthus
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Jan 2004
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  Old Post 21-07-2005 00:55
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Matrix got it right - Humans are natural.... as virus.

St Leo is offline St Leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Screw up? Hmmm, albatrosses or mice... I really don't care, so why bother?


We are risking a nasty chain reaction in animal populations. By introducing the mice, we rocked the boat. It's in our interests to stabilize it. We want to minimize risk, and risk is minimized by eliminating the mice infestation.

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
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  Old Post 21-07-2005 01:26 Visit Immortal Wombat's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Screw up? Hmmm, albatrosses or mice... I really don't care, so why bother?

There are mice elsewhere. The albatross are endangered. And since diversity of species is a Good Thing, we should take measures to protect the albatross.

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
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  Old Post 21-07-2005 01:48 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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Ah, but if we leave the mice there and they turn into evil bird eating preditory mice, then we are increasing the diversity of species.

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
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They are evil bird eating predatory mice already, but I'll bet they haven't speciated yet. They could probably chase all the rare sea-bird species off the island before speciating in fact.

 
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