21-07-2005 04:13									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus Matrix got it right - Humans are natural.... as virus.

actually matrix got it quite wrong. Matrix says that mammals instinctively seek to achieve a balance with their environment but actually as a rule mammals have to wait for the environment to force a balance on them. Overgrazing, is not at all unusual for mammals and even predators can get out of whack at times and overhunt their prey. If disease or drought or any other non predator related adversity seriously diminishes the population of their prey, the predators don't change their reproductive rate or kill rate so starvation ends up reigning in the predators just as it controls the population of the prey.


Oddly human birthrates are declining world wide in spite of a lack of general starvation. This suggests that perhaps humans are almost the only mammals who "instinctively" seek to achieve a 'balance' with their environment.

	21-07-2005 04:21									#32
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what will the mice eat when all the birds are dead?

Won't somebody please think of the mice!

	21-07-2005 04:22									#33
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I think in the West at least it's probably the environment forcing balance again. The social and economic environment rather than the natural one, but still.

	21-07-2005 04:26									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat I think in the West at least it's probably the environment forcing balance again. The social and economic environment rather than the natural one, but still.

forcing?? hardly. humans could breed like bunnies under these circumstances easily and yet birthrates are declining. Other creatures also encounter adversity before actual starvation sets in and yet in general their mating behavior and birthrates are totally unaffected during such periods.

Isn't it odd that human populations increased so very slowly in the precivilized era in which we were already top of the food chain and didn't yet face the epidemics that densely populated civilization would allow to curtail our population? I suspect that in many early cultures primitive (but somewhat effective) efforts at birth control were used when resources seemed scarce.

	21-07-2005 04:29									#35
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It is hard to breed like a bunny if you spent your 20s clubbing and your 30s having a career to earn enough money to raise a kid. Society is introducing its own restrictions which are leading to lowered birthrates.

	21-07-2005 04:31									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat It is hard to breed like a bunny if you spent your 20s clubbing and your 30s having a career to earn enough money to raise a kid. Society is introducing its own restrictions which are leading to lowered birthrates.

absolutely. But such behavior is hardly virus like is it? (to be fair it was bart and not you who made that comparison but that's what my responses have been directed at).

	21-07-2005 05:33									#37
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Well I did not have the individual breeding behavior in mind when I said that.

Generally in the first world birthrates are falling but in third world people are breeding like crazy. Just take a look at population increases over last 2000 years.

Also the way we consume the planet's resources is viruslike. There was an article on CNN.com in which they showed sat pictures of couple areas and compared today's to those of 20 years ago. Very appalling.

If you look at mother nature's tendencies regarding animal populations related to their eating habits and so on - as in those that eat plants tend to have higher population than animals that prey upon those vegetarians - human population should be at around 10,000 worldwide yet it is not.

It is my sincere belief that as a species we need to start to exercise self-restraint and start acting in the planet's interests as opposite to our own gluttonus materialistic interests.

	21-07-2005 05:51									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo absolutely. But such behavior is hardly virus like is it? (to be fair it was bart and not you who made that comparison but that's what my responses have been directed at).

No. I was agreeing with your first point and disputing the second.

Hopefully we can achieve that which viruses never will: the ability to organise and structure our resource consumption to prevent ourselves and the host "organism" (Gaia) from dying. Or alternatively, become a space-borne planet virus first.

	21-07-2005 05:55									#39
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Amen, IW

	21-07-2005 06:00									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus Well I did not have the individual breeding behavior in mind when I said that. Generally in the first world birthrates are falling but in third world people are breeding like crazy. Just take a look at population increases over last 2000 years. Also the way we consume the planet's resources is viruslike. There was an article on CNN.com in which they showed sat pictures of couple areas and compared today's to those of 20 years ago. Very appalling. If you look at mother nature's tendencies regarding animal populations related to their eating habits and so on - as in those that eat plants tend to have higher population than animals that prey upon those vegetarians - human population should be at around 10,000 worldwide yet it is not.

Do not delude yourself. resources are voraciously consumed by all other living things. The apparent balance aspect arises largely from competition and the much slower rate at which other organisms have been able to win a larger share of resources for themselves in the past. However, there is evidence of massive total resource depletion in the distant past. The rapid consumption of the 'primordial soup' in which life originiated was almost certainly an early example of this and the depletion of atmospheric CO2 upon which the first photosynthetic organisms relied was another. In both cases the resource was consumed to the point at which most lifeforms could not even survive at the new reduced levels and in the case of CO2 it was accompanied with the secretion of a massive blanket of toxic gaseous waste into the atmosphere that killed off the vast majority of species on the planet and made enormous areas of the biosphere uninhabitable to Earth's original organisms.

Those earlier depletions were the result of a new finite resource being exploited by newly evolved organisms. Exploited until due to consumer die off in the face of scarcity, it was no longer possible to consume the resource faster than it could be replenished. For humans it is the lack of credible competition within our vast and expandible ecological niche which allows us to use an ever increasing share of available resources combined with the new resource needs of our evolving culturally created capabilities. depletion of resources is the natural result of an organism pioneering first exploitation of new resources. All organisms follow that pattern at first.


As to a calculated population of 10,000 that number is clearly a number some pseudo scientist with an agenda pulled out of his arse. There are a great many species that are vastly more geographically specialized than humans and with even larger body sizes that numbered in the millions and in the case of creatures like buffalo approached scales of a billion on a single continent.

quote: Originally posted by Barinthus It is my sincere belief that as a species we need to start to exercise self-restraint and start acting in the planet's interests as opposite to our own gluttonus materialistic interests.

I completely agree. We have brains and we should use them. There is no reason for us to pattern our behavior on the self destructive examples of all of the other creatures on this planet.

	21-07-2005 09:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Screw up? Hmmm, albatrosses or mice... I really don't care, so why bother? We are risking a nasty chain reaction in animal populations.

What chain reaction? It's an extremely remote, isolated island!

quote: By introducing the mice, we rocked the boat. It's in our interests to stabilize it.

How? Why? I'd say it's in our interests to either study this actually very interesting behavior or to just ignore it since it doesn't affect us.

	21-07-2005 09:58									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat There are mice elsewhere. The albatross are endangered. And since diversity of species is a Good Thing, we should take measures to protect the albatross.

I'm sorry, but there's no possible harm from losing a species of Albatross that lives on an isolated island.

	21-07-2005 10:16									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I'm sorry, but there's no possible harm from losing a species of Albatross that lives on an isolated island.

Do you reject an aesthetic approach that would argue that the preventable loss of any non harmful irreplacable ancient and unique thing - such as a species - is always a deplorable turn of events?

Granted I don't think albatross will go extinct regardless of what we let these mice do, and this island population doesn't seem particularly distinct from other albatross but it sounds as if in general you think any loss of species that has no economic consequences is entirely inconsequential.

I hope I'm wrong.

	21-07-2005 10:17									#44
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quote: Do you reject an aesthetic approach that would argue that the preventable loss of any non harmful irreplacable ancient and unique thing - such as a species - is always a deplorable turn of events?

Yes, because it's retarded.

	21-07-2005 10:22									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Do you reject an aesthetic approach that would argue that the preventable loss of any non harmful irreplacable ancient and unique thing - such as a species - is always a deplorable turn of events? Yes, because it's retarded.

Retarded? sufficient intelligence would preclude such an argument? In which case it is easily refuted in a way that would satisfy all intelligent observers?

Think of it in terms of keeping our options open. We have far more options with a living species than we do with an extinct species.

For the record what are your feelings on the Talibans campaign to destroy ancient works of art because they held that images of living things are idols? Are you cavalier about the destruction of anything regardless of whether it's replacable or not?

	21-07-2005 10:23									#46
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dp

	21-07-2005 14:56									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Do not delude yourself. resources are voraciously consumed by all other living things.

If you ever find a mice's garbage can as filled as a human's, let me know

	21-07-2005 16:41									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Retarded? sufficient intelligence would preclude such an argument? In which case it is easily refuted in a way that would satisfy all intelligent observers?

Because attaching moral imperatives to purely aesthetic (used loosely) values, particularly when we're talking about whether it's a bird (of which we have plenty) or a mouse that we kill off, is inane. Morality should be based on effect, which in this case is zero.

quote: Think of it in terms of keeping our options open. We have far more options with a living species than we do with an extinct species.

Not really in this case. It's a bird. Whoop-de-do. OTOH, this is actually interesting behavior on the part of the mice. Let 'em do their work.

quote: For the record what are your feelings on the Talibans campaign to destroy ancient works of art because they held that images of living things are idols? Are you cavalier about the destruction of anything regardless of whether it's replacable or not?

Human artifacts are slightly more likely to be useful/interesting than some random albatrosses.

	21-07-2005 17:04									#49
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"And why is that? Is not man part of nature as well?"

Well if man removes the mice that is still a natural act, isn't it?

	21-07-2005 17:09									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I'm sorry, but there's no possible harm from losing a species of Albatross that lives on an isolated island.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I don't mean in the sense of a classical tragedy, but what sort of story do you find really heart-wrenching? I think I'm kind of twisted in this, as people dying doesn't really make a story tragic to me (in general; there are a few exceptions to this rule). Rather, the stories that are really painful to me are those in which some piece of information is lost, forever, even if this isn't the focus of the author...

For information (unique, irretrievable data), substitute species of albatross (unique, irretrievable data). It is exactly the same thing, and its loss should be tragic regardless of the practical "uses" of another albatross species. The kind of attitude which is willing to sacrifice an albatross becomes one which is willing to sacrifice any number of obscure and "useless" species, and Earth will be the worse off for it.
Read Asimov's story 2430AD for a truly heart-wrenching tragedy in that vein.

	21-07-2005 19:59									#51
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Yes, but these mice aren't threatening the Albatross with extinction. They have plenty of other nesting areas unaffected by mutant, bird-eating super-mice.

	21-07-2005 20:06									#52
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Funnily enough, they don't. [link]

quote: For example, the Tristan Albatross is of particular concern because it is now extinct at its original breeding ground on Tristan da Cunha, and Gough Island is home to some 99.8% of the remaining population. "The Tristan Albatross is at risk anyway because of long-line fishing, and it's doubly at risk because of the mice," responds Cuthbert. [...] The one advantage that albatrosses and petrels have is that they are very long-lived, Cuthbert adds. "It's a big, big conservation concern, but in the next five years or so - probably nothing will go extinct as a direct result of the mice, I would imagine."

If the present generation can't breed, they will go extinct. Not soon, but they will.

	21-07-2005 20:43									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What chain reaction? It's an extremely remote, isolated island!

Albatrosses are not noted for being sedentary. They range very, very far and do stuff there.

	22-07-2005 01:32									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat For information (unique, irretrievable data), substitute species of albatross (unique, irretrievable data). It is exactly the same thing, and its loss should be tragic regardless of the practical "uses" of another albatross species. The kind of attitude which is willing to sacrifice an albatross becomes one which is willing to sacrifice any number of obscure and "useless" species, and Earth will be the worse off for it. Read Asimov's story 2430AD for a truly heart-wrenching tragedy in that vein.

Touche on the quote, but I didn't say I based my morality on it. That's an emotional response.

Re: slippery slope, that's absurd. It's a case of willing to sacrifice an obscure, useless (no quotes), completely isolated, and not particularly distinctive (an albatross is an albatross is an albatross) species.

	22-07-2005 01:33									#55
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What chain reaction? It's an extremely remote, isolated island! Albatrosses are not noted for being sedentary. They range very, very far and do stuff there.

If so, then they aren't threatened.

	22-07-2005 01:49									#56
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I saw the movie. Bunch of mice are eating it and this stupid bird does what? Blinks? Ponders the meaning of life?

Are they tasty? Maybe we should enjoy them a bit before the mice kill them off.

	22-07-2005 02:00									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I saw the movie. Bunch of mice are eating it and this stupid bird does what? Blinks? Ponders the meaning of life? Are they tasty? Maybe we should enjoy them a bit before the mice kill them off.

Reminds me of the cow from the restaurant at the end of the universe.

	22-07-2005 02:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Touche on the quote, but I didn't say I based my morality on it. That's an emotional response.

When humanity isn't directly affected either way, it's not a moral issue. The Philosophical Biologist in me holds that diversity should be preserved for its own sake - as examples of Life's abundant variety - unless there are pressing practical reasons for doing otherwise. Which there are not.

quote: Re: slippery slope, that's absurd. It's a case of willing to sacrifice an obscure, useless (no quotes), completely isolated, and not particularly distinctive (an albatross is an albatross is an albatross) species.

It's complete isolation makes it all the more scientifically interesting. You know about allopatric speciation surely? Isolation is where interesting things happen and where the interesting things which happen are simple enough to study. The Tristan/Gough island group is practically the only one in a temperate climate zone which has not been affected by introduced predatory or grazing species. Personally, I quite like the idea of not allowing unique habitats to be destroyed.

Because if the albatross goes, the mice will start feeding on other birds and eggs - they already take Atlantic petrels. The endemic flightless rail will probably be next to go extinct, but that's ok, because they're isolated and not distinctive either. And then the other birds on the island are all common, so it doesn't matter if they're wiped out by supermice - and oops, we've let this pristine island habitat become a rock full of rodents.

How many islands do we let go the same way? All of them? Are no albatross species worth keeping...? Penguins...? Whales...?

	22-07-2005 02:13									#59
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quote: It's complete isolation makes it all the more scientifically interesting. You know about allopatric speciation surely? Isolation is where interesting things happen and where the interesting things which happen are simple enough to study. The Tristan/Gough island group is practically the only one in a temperate climate zone which has not been affected by introduced predatory or grazing species. Personally, I quite like the idea of not allowing unique habitats to be destroyed.

This is an interesting thing happening - a beautiful chance to observe learning behavior

	22-07-2005 02:14									#60
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Pah. Psychology is bunk. Animal psychology doubly so. And, I might add, bunk which could quite easily be done in a lab.