22-07-2005 04:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT **** happens. It was wartime. Surprisingly, not everyone dies, not even on the battlefield.

if you want to do drama, someone really close to the hero has to die. otherwise it's popcorn movie

	22-07-2005 04:19									#32
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quote: the fact that Cruise is now a murderer, a decision he made coldly, cooly, and rationally. still, without showing the actual act of killing (as it was done in the mob-vs-car scene) it seems as if nothing happened. cruise is not placed any blame for the murder

I'm confused. Did he murder two people? The one I remember was him murdering the creepy guy played by Tim Robbins.

	22-07-2005 04:21									#33
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You'd think that critters capable of planning a meal one million years in advance would have considered the micro-organism angle. Surely they had them on their world at one time, and considering the sophistication of their efforts you'd think that they would have had a contingency plan to counteract infectious organisms. In Wells day the idea of microbial infections was still new. The scientific community hadn't given much thought to the role of microbes in the scheme of life or their place in the evolution of higher organisms. Now we can't imagine sentient life evolving anywhere without microbes evolving first. Critters capable of traveling across space, finding a planet that they know will one day host a lesser sentient species, and burying cloaked machines that remain operational for one million years really, really, really ought to have sufficient command of medical biology to prepare for just about any possible medical emergency, including parasites. Consider how we, though not yet having managed a manned mission to any neighboring planets, have mapped our entire genome and probably will have unravelled the basic "proteome" within a decade. Surely they would have progressed unfathomable eons further in their knowlege of medical biology.

Anyway, if someone could do all that they could do, why would they wait one million years for harvest time? You'd think theynwould have been easily able to come down here, grab some Australopithecines, make a few tweaks in their genome and voila: Homo sapiens delectus! Did they want to give us just a little head start? maybe they like to cheat on Masters of Orion?

	22-07-2005 06:22									#34
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You're taking Robbins' word as fact, Dr., when it was anything but. He has no idea how long the things were "buried", or if they were actually buried in the first place. For all we know the machines were stealthed in (to coin a word) a month prior to the harvesting, dropped in Antartica, and then they tunneled their way to their starting positions.

In fact, one of the biggest mistakes people make about this movie is assuming that its a military operation on the aliens part (the title of the film plays into this misconception, but Harvest of the Worlds is a really stupid title. Imho. ) I think it is not, that the operation makes more sense seen as a harvesting/terraforming operation. Yes, the machines were built with some basic offensive and defensive capabilities (heat rays, shields), but the weapons they had were totally ill-suited for a "war" of extermination. The aliens were so superior that we were essentially field mice fighting off their version of a $500,000 John Deere harvester. So why the weapons? If our mice could fight back, we would equip the harvester with the armaments necessary to protect itself, but not so strong as to destroy the plot of ground that we wish to harvest. Which perfectly describes the weaponry aboard the tripods.

Again, the germs ending was kind of lame but given how we're conditioned to expect a proactive resolution in our dramas, any explanation that had the machines just stopping would be seen as lame by most who viewed it.

Last edited by JohnT on 22-07-2005 at 06:36

	22-07-2005 06:24									#35
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I agree with MarkG in that the son living spoiled the ending. The son made a choice, he made a choice that his father couldn't make. In order for the differences between the two of them to be meaningful, the choice the son makes has to have consequences. Choices have consequences. He runs over hill to meet onrushing alien horde, he should die. I think his living negates his choice and destroys the interplay between him and his father.

	22-07-2005 06:29									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG it's not about understanding what goes on, it's about making a point. with the closed door spielberg treats us like cruise did with his daughter: dont see what's happening so that you dont get traumatized...

Not at all, Mark. Spielberg left it to the audiences imagination as to what happened behind the closed door. A far lesser director (Bey, Emmerich, Columbus) would've shown a knock-down, drag-out, and it wouldn't have added a thing to this movie. Detracted from it, even, as it would've totally ruined the pacing and turned the years best horror film into yet another action yawner.

You want to see people get killed, watch Friday the Thirteenth.

	22-07-2005 06:32									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael I agree with MarkG in that the son living spoiled the ending. The son made a choice, he made a choice that his father couldn't make. In order for the differences between the two of them to be meaningful, the choice the son makes has to have consequences. Choices have consequences. He runs over hill to meet onrushing alien horde, he should die. I think his living negates his choice and destroys the interplay between him and his father.

Again, you don't see the son running over the hill. Once he breaks away from Cruise, you see nothing more of him. The idea that he ran out into the battlefield is yours, and not supported by the film.

For all we know, ten seconds after Cruise lets him go some army guy, feeling a more than a little panicked, grabs Robby and says "We're getting the hell out of here son!" and doesn't let go. Or Robby saw over the crest, realized that this was no place for him, and fled along with the rest of the civilians. Or whatever... the point is, we don't know.

	22-07-2005 06:35									#38
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Implications. Just like behind the door. You know what happens. Anyways.

The point is, the son has made a choice. That choice needs to mean something. And, I'm also not the only person to think the son made that choice.

	22-07-2005 06:38									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Implications. Just like behind the door. You know what happens. Anyways. The point is, the son has made a choice. That choice needs to mean something. And, I'm also not the only person to think the son made that choice.

It doesn't have to mean his life, though. That's the easy way out, the emotional cheap-shot designed to draw a tear to the audiences eye.

What it meant was more respect for the father from the son, and more respect for the son from the father.

	22-07-2005 07:49									#40
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*shrug* I like killing off characters in my own stories.

	22-07-2005 08:04									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Implications. Just like behind the door. You know what happens. Anyways. The point is, the son has made a choice. That choice needs to mean something. And, I'm also not the only person to think the son made that choice.

I addressed this issue in one of the many dozen other War of the Worlds threads. But I disagree vigorously.

Allowing him to live is the greatest vindication of that choice. It means much more when we know he lives.

The whole movie the son had shown glimpses of heroism. But was always held back my his father. He wanted to help, he wanted to do something, he wanted to contribute in some way to the betterment (preservation) of mankind. His father didn't give a damn and just wanted to save his own neck and those of his two kids. Even if it meant killing others or leaving others to die.

These were the two opposing viewpoints of the film and their two characters. That critical moment on the hill sets these two viewpoints directly at odds. Cruise's viewpoint is that you shouldn't stick your neck out because its just going to end up hurting you or killing you. His is a very selfish viewpoint. Robbie's of course is more selfless. His safety is of less concern to him than the good of humanity.

To allow his character to die vincicates the father. At the end of the movie viewers will say "Cruise was right, if you stick your neck out to help someone, you're just going to end up getting killed. Cruise never helped anyone, and his approach worked. Robbie's didn't." That I feel is a bad message and one Spielburg didn't want to send.

Allowing Robbie to live made the point that helping others isn't stupid, reckless, foolish, idealistic or naive.

Because of that I am very happy Robbie lived.

	22-07-2005 08:17									#42
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I also really loved this movie.

	22-07-2005 12:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT You want to see people get killed, watch Friday the Thirteenth.

why didnt he leave it to our imagination when he showed hundreds of people being killed by the tripod's beams?

	22-07-2005 12:11									#44
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP These were the two opposing viewpoints of the film and their two characters. ... Allowing Robbie to live made the point that helping others isn't stupid, reckless, foolish, idealistic or naive.

so as both are saved spielberg doesnt make a stand. if you're one of the lead characters, no matter if you're good or selfish, you get saved. how's that for a movie with a message?

	22-07-2005 15:56									#45
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Well it would be realistic for the selfish one to survive and the hero to die...

Sending the message "The hero survives even when his actions are foolish in this circumstances" is lame imho

	22-07-2005 17:02									#46
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What was so heroic about Robbie's actions? He had no weapons, he could have been no more than a hindrance to the troops. Cruise could not have gone charging of over the hill, he had his daughter to take care of. In fact he risked the daughter by lingering to try to talk some sense into Robbie.
I don't see Cruise as a coward either. He uses his head to do his utmost to guard the safety of his children. He eventually risks his life first to go up into a machine to get his daughter and then by putting himself deeper into the machine to plant the grenade that puts it out of action.

	22-07-2005 17:10									#47
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Your quote: quote: "no kid character is ever harmed in a spielberg movie" rule... Nothing about death, nothing about the kid character being major, just "no kid character is ever harmed..." You made a blanket assertion and I countered it with facts. Simple, eh?

Supposedly, Speilberg has said he won't harm any kids in his movies.

I was rather displeased about the son surviving.

	22-07-2005 17:22									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove He had no weapons, he could have been no more than a hindrance to the troops.

that's the classic american movie hero
run into battle with nothing except your fists and end up saving the world

	22-07-2005 17:24									#49
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Allowing him to live is the greatest vindication of that choice. It means much more when we know he lives.

I disagree very much. Choices have consequences, and if you make a bad choice, you need to suffer the consequences. Robbie made the choice to run over the hill just to see the battle, not even to take part in it. What were his last words? "I need to see this." He risked his father and his sister because of his selfish need to see the battle, when everything that they'd seen up to that point should have told him that it wasn't a battle but a slaughter.

By allowing Robbie to live you make the points that: choices don't have consequences, you can discard your parents rules for safety, you can put other people in jeapody without risk, etc.

Yes, Robbie made a choice, several of them, and he paid for none of them.

I also disagree with you saying that Cruise's chracter didn't stick his neck out for anyone. Several times he tried to help other characters: the mechanic, his neighbors, etc. He just didn't do so foolishly.

	23-07-2005 06:07									#50
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Those tripods were buried millions of years ago. Wait..what?

That would mean that was the best technology the martians had to deploy. Hell, the tripods were way better than what we had. But it seems more and more like they are in fact the intergalatic version of the Ford Pinto.

The plot didnt make sense Unless we accept the fact the aliens had conquered there home and ceased technologically to advance.

Ok I have a difficult time in making points like these in writing. But here goes... It would be equivlant of us Burying Spears and Wooden clubs on Jupiters moon Europa cause in a few billion years there will be thriving life there (if not today?)

My conculsion is that the martians were absolutely inferior to us. They were allowed to exist in bacteria free enviroment, which is probably a freak occurence in the scheme of the universe . Having no microbial nemesis. They didnt evolve normally. The concept to them was unimaginable. Kind of like the Flu/measels carried in blankets was to the indians.



Great movie. Great action. Damn I hate Dakota Fanning.

	23-07-2005 07:27									#51
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quote: Those tripods were buried millions of years ago. Wait..what?

That is a totally unwarranted assertion made by a character who had absolutely no idea what had happened. Why so many movie-goers accept it as "truth" is totally beyond me.

	23-07-2005 07:36									#52
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quote: To allow his character to die vincicates the father. At the end of the movie viewers will say "Cruise was right, if you stick your neck out to help someone, you're just going to end up getting killed. Cruise never helped anyone, and his approach worked. Robbie's didn't." That I feel is a bad message and one Spielburg didn't want to send. Allowing Robbie to live made the point that helping others isn't stupid, reckless, foolish, idealistic or naive. Because of that I am very happy Robbie lived.

Allowing a character to live has nothing to do with legitimizing his position. A mass murderer who eludes police in the end is not necessarily sanctioned by the director.

On the other hand, If Robbie had been killed trying to get people on the evacuation boat, we would all know he died doing the right thing.

Getting lost wanting to watch a battle is just idiotic, and the fact that you somehow believe this as a brave act further goes to show what a nut you are about this youth advocacy front. That you buy his miracle survival from a dramatic standpoint isn't encouraging either.

	23-07-2005 08:12									#53
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: Those tripods were buried millions of years ago. Wait..what? That is a totally unwarranted assertion made by a character who had absolutely no idea what had happened. Why so many movie-goers accept it as "truth" is totally beyond me.

OK, you do have a point. I mean after all, it's Tom Cruise saying it and he's a Scientologist.

Hey wait! Maybe this movie is all about Scientology! Could these be the same aliens who implanted bad engrams in our heads? Maybe they returned because Scientology was making headway towards removing the bad engrams?

	23-07-2005 13:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG it's one thing showing someone shooting someone else, even if that man is not shown, and another showing a closed door with no understandable sounds. if spielberg wanted to cast any blame on cruise for the killing he would have to show a bit more than a closed door....

But he did. Before the door was closed you saw the darkened silouette of Cruise standing in the doorway, and Robbin's character looking nervously behind him. When he closed the door there were no illusions in my mind what was going to happen.

	23-07-2005 13:57									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Theben When he closed the door there were no illusions in my mind what was going to happen.

is it the same for you if you see a headline "50 people killed in bomb explosion" and actually seeing images from the site?

	23-07-2005 14:48									#56
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apples vs. oranges...

	23-07-2005 14:56									#57
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quote: apples vs. oranges...

well, after that argument i can only agree with you

	23-07-2005 16:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Theben But he did. Before the door was closed you saw the darkened silouette of Cruise standing in the doorway, and Robbin's character looking nervously behind him. When he closed the door there were no illusions in my mind what was going to happen.

Same here, I knew Cruise would start to preach scientology to him, the evils of psychology/drugs, and then jump around about his love for Katie. Robbins was trapped.

I didn't buy Robbins' transformation to raving nutcase. Cruise was able to keep him quiet and passive when the alien probe was searching his place & only a few feet away, yet a few minutes later he starts screaming about his "tunnel to the city" and how they won't get his blood?

Great special effects. Yet, I didn't care if a tripod stepped on Cruise & kids at all. And the ending with Robbie made it worse. Overall, I was disappointed. I wanted to see Batman Begins, but I was outvoted.

	23-07-2005 16:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Theben apples vs. oranges...

I prefer oranges, but apples are ok.

	23-07-2005 16:55									#60
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Btw, I've seen this film four times already and will likely go again this weekend.

Check out the scene where Cruise tells the guard to look at the tripod with the shield down because of the flock of birds around it. How many birds naturally clutter (trying to land?) around a large loud moving metal machine? I know it's sci-fi, but if they do that they might as well had Tom Cruise be beast master and tell the birds to attack while Aquaman had the sea creatures secure the oceans.