25-07-2005 02:30									#31
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quote: First, it's a phrase people use.

Yes. It's a phrase used to convey someone's personal assurances about something. However, given that I don't put much stock in yours (I like Civ3, better than Civ2 or SMAC/X), the response "Why?" is still appropriate.

	25-07-2005 02:40									#32
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You do have my personal assurance, but that doesn't make a bit of difference to you, right? Next semantic move.

	25-07-2005 14:31									#33
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quote: @yin26: trust me or don't trust me

Choices, choices... I preferred when you simply said 'trust me'

	25-07-2005 16:43									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Scaled-down units will be hard to distinguish within cities. Any sensible player will simply use filters instead of scaled-down units. The reason why units are giants is because you can clearly manipulate them when the "unit" filter is active, i.e when you're dealing with the military aspect fo the game.

It seems to me that not only units, but trees are far out-scaled compared to city buildings, and some are already debating about comparing building to wonder, to terrain improvement (e.g. mill, farm, etc.).
*IF* they are separate graphical object, I'm quite confident they can be rescaled at our pleasure. Be able to do it with an "in game" control panel or by modding an XML file by hand will made the difference between a choice for every player or only one for dedicated and informed fans. Do you remember editing autoexec.bat and config.sys?

Filters are good options, but I'll like to see a kind of "unit raising" when my mouse fly over, like "tips" or "alt image tag" do for help in many programs. As far as I can see there is a unit in a city, I can point my mouse over it, let the unit "scale up" and check which unit it is before selecting it.
BTW, CIV 3 units *are* quite taller than cities.

	25-07-2005 17:12									#35
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quote: @Adm.Naismith: some are already debating about comparing building to wonder, to terrain improvement (e.g. mill, farm, etc.).

Yes, that can happen if you want to look at scaling in Civ from a realistic point of view. If you want to do it realistically, then wonders would be huge on the map - and you nearly could not see your troops at all (ever seen a man stand besides a pyramid?).

The pyramids are enormous as are many other wonders. The map would soon be needlessly cluttered by all sorts of elements and look real funny.

You would also start having people suggest silly things like:

- movement cost over the tile(s) with the pyramids on it should be doubled, and the pyramids give a defensive bonus.

- enemy troops in the great library tile would start reading books and have an increased movement cost (but give those units a knowledge upgrade: it adds to the enemy's overall literacy rate)

- enemy troops would have a 10% chance of drowning in the hoover dam's artificial lake (but not if their civ has the great lighthouse wonder)

- troops moving onto the great lighthouse wonder tile would be blinded for two turns

- troops moving onto the apollo program wonder tile would stand a 20% chance of getting burned by rocket ignition tests

... just to show you on what kind of shaky ground realism can be in games

	25-07-2005 17:57									#36
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Trust me: Firaxis will regret this zoomable, 3D goofball of a graphics catastophe. Only the modders can save it now.

Yin, zooming is a powerful tool, and should be used wisely, a concept I bet someone is missing while taking screenshots of the game.

"Ehi, I did a great job rendering that unit uniform! Let's anyone know zooming on it to the death".
Anyone that ever looked at photos of collegues' vacation, know that feeling of someone on photo focus trashed by horrible background, forgotten by the photographer...

IMHO the power of the tool is that you can rotate and zoom out your way till the old "flat from the sky - Civ1" view. Take a look at the Screenshot and enjoy it!

Civ game is not properly 3D (mountains and hills effects are simulated), and it doesn't need a 3d strategy, that's right! Still, a good engine should open up more possibilities, not more limits.

A movie is still seen on a flat screen, at the theatre or at TV, still actors and special effects are fully 3D, AFAIK. That's widening director's opportunity, not limiting it.
Disney teams did great jobs with classic cartoon, using only flat cell animation, still not any great movie should be limited to this approach, IMHO.

Dear Yin, you are mudding the water because you want to love this game, but you are afraid to be disappointed as a young boy (or girl) at his (her) first date...
Relax, and wait 'till november release: I'm sure it's already too late to change any mind in Firaxis / Take2 team.

You can keep your cards near your chest for as long as... easter 2006, then brush up your "Yin's machine" and review the whole, patched game at your pleasure and teaching a few lesson here and there (I know you are able to fit the job seriusly, no kidding).
Well, may be will be too late for avid fans and casual players, but the truth and history need their time .

BTW, I'll have the opportunity to read real gamers reviews from USA, before the game will reach the game shops here in Italy in a couple of weeks.
How to change a commercial nuisance into a safe buy

	25-07-2005 18:04									#37
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quote: Originally posted by AeonOfTime - enemy troops in the great library tile would start reading books and have an increased movement cost (but give those units a knowledge upgrade: it adds to the enemy's overall literacy rate) ... just to show you on what kind of shaky ground realism can be in games

Not to mentioning the Internet Wonder and the Apolyton's side effects: population and productivity drop because too many people spend way too much time arguing about game and not working or "playing with partner"...

BTW, my point was to simply consider a mild rescale as an option, while the game engine should "pop-up" any element under your mouse pointer, for better player awareness of units kind and strenght.

	25-07-2005 18:16									#38
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quote: @Adm.Naismith: BTW, my point was to simply consider a mild rescale as an option

And I agree to that. Somehow, I have a hunch that option is in, as the units scale is the biggest issue that has been discussed over and over since the first screenshots. The guys at firaxis have surely gotten wind of that... And if they haven't, I know for a fact that they mentioned scale being easily editable in the XML - making it easy to change for everyone with a decent text editor.

	25-07-2005 18:26									#39
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quote: Ah, that's the civ veteran in you talking

May I remember you guys that yin is anybody but a civ veteran.
Yin26 became "big" in the civ community since he managed the civ3-list. In a very very good way, I must add.

Things went wrong when Firaxis loved the "The list" idea so much that they asked Yin to move it from Poly to the Firaxis website. Yin was very eager to do this.

Though Firaxis screwed something up during this movement, and yin became angry at them. I agreed with yin and supported him by e-mailing a few times with Dan Magaha.
Things never worked out between Firaxis and yin, so the entire "list on firaxis.com" idea failed in the end.

Yin never was capable to let the past rest and kept hating Firaxis from that moment on.
From that moment on Yin became the pessimist, blackmouthing anything Firaxis said and did in advance.

Don't take the guy too serious.
He's never been a good civ player.
He's a very good list-manager though. chears for that yin! Now let the past go and stop this board polluting please.

You have your opinion. We know about this opinion.
We knew your opinion already before you voiced it here.

It's clear, you don't like civ. Now please leave and never come back. There's no need to keep wasting your and our time, is it. It's not as if I'm on the doom3-messageboards all the time telling how much doom3 sucks etc.

It's a pitty thouh, yin, that you could've been a great name in Apolyton history since, like I said, you did a REALLY GOOD JOB on the list in those days.
Though from now on we will not remember the great yin26.

to bad. I liked that yin much more.

kind regards anyway,

CyberShy

	25-07-2005 18:34									#40
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy It's clear, you don't like civ. Now please leave and never come back. There's no need to keep wasting your and our time, is it.

Although I disagree with Yin's pessimism, he makes many great points, and isn't too stubborn to ignore when he's been proven wrong. He's an intelligent poster.

Why would we want him to leave?

	25-07-2005 18:47									#41
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Agreed. Who is to say that yin isn't bringing up good ideas now?

It's always healthy to have different perspectives.

Not being a "great Civ3" player doesn't preclude someone from having insight to the game and future development.

	25-07-2005 18:50									#42
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quote: @CyberShy: Don't take [yin26] too serious

I respect yin for a lot of things he said in this forum. I'm thinking of the future for america/europe and the rest of the world in particular... While it is true that he radiates pessimism like a supernova, it's not like he can't be reasoned with.

Spiffor even got him to agree on an issue recently:

quote: In reply to Spiffor: Bravo on a very sensible post. Believe it or not, I'm eager to see what comes of Civ 4, and I do hope it will impress

And there still seems to be some hope for his pessimism:

quote: In reply to Aro: I'm going to try to adopt more of your positive energy. It's catchy.

quote: In response to Imran: I am officially dropping my Defcon number down 1.

Even though it took quite some convincing And if you want to approach the issue from a theological standpoint, you could say that we civers are the yang - and without yin there's no fun

	25-07-2005 18:51									#43
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I don´t want him to leave.

There´s too much optimism in the board

quote: It's always healthy to have different perspectives.

QFT!

	25-07-2005 19:02									#44
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quote: @CyberShy: Don't take [yin26] too serious

That's exactly what I was trying to say.
Don't take him too serious.
It's all been based on the old argument/fight he got with Firaxis. He's not a civ vet. And he's not anticipating any new civ game anyway.

AND I added to that that he did some great stuff in the past as well.

	25-07-2005 20:02									#45
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quote: And there still seems to be some hope for his pessimism

Don't delude yourself. He said similar things before Civ3 came out, but when it did, he reverted to attack mode .

	25-07-2005 20:19									#46
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Well, I am trying to stay low-key for a while, but I feel this deserves a response:

First, my thanks to those of you who are open to my feedback. It's a public forum, right? I never understood people who can't accept dissenting views, etc., even if you find them incredibly annoying.

Second, it seems, oddly enough, that others here are holding on to the past. I had forgotten completely about the list fiasco on firaxis.com until it was mentioned just now. If anything, I had issues with the Firaxis QA department, and to the degree that these problems have been addressed, I doubt you'll hear much from me on this score. Yes, the game will have issues. Yes, most will be fixed. In which case, what's the issue?

As for not being a good civ player, that one just makes me laugh. What does good mean? That I devote my life to MP games on Poly? Please. I whoop the AI in my sleep a day or two after starting my first game. If you had been paying attention, you would know that part of my argument is that the game is too predictable.

As for "vet" status, here again what are you after: Little shields under my name for all my little MP affiliations at Poly? Odd, I would think that vet could also apply to somebody who played Civ 1 - 3 and contributed in whatever way to their progress. Guess not.

As I'm grateful has been pointed out, I came to Poly looking for counters to my worries. Over that time, despite the fact that I think it will be overall graphically annoying and, once again, utterly too predictable, I think that MP from the ground up and great modding options will save the game. My sense, therefore, is that my Day 1 review would be in the 7.0 -8.0 region while some later expansion packs plus mods could easily bring this up to the 9+ area. Sorry if this bothers anybody.

Finally, I plan to give Civ 4 a fair review and will only take Firaxis to task if they do something rampantly stupid. But if what people are saying here is true, then Firaxis has learned something from past mistakes, and I'm happy to limit my feedback to specific in-game mechanics moving forward.

Of course, I wonder if certain others here can let the past go themselves?

	25-07-2005 21:27									#47
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quote: @yin26: Well, I am trying to stay low-key for a while

Now that's the stupidest thing you have said to date. There will always be people that apreciate your insights as well as those who don't. Forget the individual reasons, they are endless.

It makes sense that if you come into a well of happiness like this forum and try to share your doubts you will make ripples in the water. I like ripples - they add spice to life.

And now, as Civ4 is still not out we can go on raving about what it will and will not be without actually knowing anything about it. Don't you just love forums?

	25-07-2005 21:52									#48
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Of course you're free to have your opinion, yin.
Though you morely act like a person who enters a party and starts to shout your, indeed well phrased, complains about the party gift. And you join any conversation that's being held at the party, and turn it into a conversation about your opinion on how pathatic the party gift is.

You have the freedom of opinion.
I have the freedom to have the opinion that your opinion sucks. Mostly because it is based on almost nothing. Because it was formed before cIV was being announced and mostly because you shout it in my face in about every thread I visited since I returned from my vacation.

Please respect our opinion on your opinion.

	25-07-2005 21:53									#49
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CIV III had 7, and 8 and even 9 ratings in the firsts previews and it sucked! Owww, hell it sucked and was a big turn down Owww owww, dont make me remember that... owww!

If we want to rate CIV IV with that scale, i believe that with the fact that the AI will respect my borders (WTF! im playing a little CIV Conquests game where a civ is attacking me passing throught France, and it does not have a free pass pact with them!) and the MP thing, CIV IV will get a 12, yay!

Edit: Im with Cyber, Yin's posts are pointless and with little foundations.

	25-07-2005 22:00									#50
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AeonOfTime: Thanks.

CyberShy: Oh, so now it's about respecting your opinion on not telling me to leave because you don't like my opinion. Brilliant!

P.S. Your vacation was too short.

Last edited by yin26 on 25-07-2005 at 22:28

	26-07-2005 01:01									#51
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quote: CyberShy: Oh, so now it's about respecting your opinion on not telling me to leave because you don't like my opinion. Brilliant!

No, I just countered your countless "I have a right to have an opinion" with your own weapons :P

I don't ask you to leave because of your opinion.
I ask you to because there's no point for you being here, since you're not waiting for a new civ game.

Like there's no need for CyberShy on the doom3 forums.
Maybe I can go there and explain how doom3 sucks imho. How civ is far more superior, etc. etc.
But in the end I'm not a fan of the doom franchise. I'm not waiting for doom 4.
If I would build doom 4 I would include diplomacy between the demons and the player. I would make it turn based, and I would put the option to get a strategy. But then it won't be doom anymore. That's why I'm not at the doom forums.

So, what are you doing here?
You've admitted that civ wouldn't be civ anymore with your ideas and if your greatest point of criticism would be granted. Well, in that case, what are you doing here?
Go to the RoN forum, or create your own game.

If you really want cIV you're really welcome to voice your opinion.
If you only come here to lay a huge load of salt on any snail.......... please please yourself and please us!

Now make your decision.
Be a fan of the cIV fan community (which doesn't prohibit criticism) or don't be a part of it.

Poly is a civ-fansite, afaik.

	26-07-2005 01:13									#52
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy And there's not point for us that you're here, since you annoy us.

Be careful with your liberal use of the word "us". You speak for yourself, not the entire site.

You certainly don't speak for me.

	26-07-2005 01:29									#53
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oh, it wasn't really nice to say anyway, so I edited it totally out. thanks for correcting me.

	26-07-2005 01:31									#54
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be nice guys

	26-07-2005 02:26									#55
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CyberShy, I am shocked that you'd spread around such lies and try such machinations. That sort of posting behavior is why Apolyton is considered one of the very worst of game forums on the internet! What does it matter to you, CyberShy, if Yin26 is guarded in his expectations? I didn't see a sign that stated only statements proclaiming Firaxis as the One and All Mighty Power of the Universe was allowed here.

Just for the record, Yin26 has a very long history with Firaxis, Civ, and its game communities. He has long been a super fan of the Civ series. He just wants Civ4 to live up to the fun, wonder, and gameplay that the first Civ provided to him. But, considering Firaxis prior efforts and its occasional mis-steps and stumbles, it is not suprising that Yin is not the shining supernova of optimism. I remember when Yin first started posting on Firaxis property, and it was well before "The List". Nor was he hateful of all things Civ or Firaxis after the various troubles.

Personally, I'm of a split opinion about the graphics. From an eye candy point of view, I think they are ok. But eye candy is not what's important. Being able to see the important gameplay information easily, that's what is important. I am left wondering just how easy it will be to see the important details.

I want units oversized--- I don't want them being lost in the clutter, especially considering how cluttered a city might become. I want to be able to easily click on them! Heck with "realism". There isn't anything significantly realistic in Civ to begin with, and I'm not looking for it. Just fun. Hopefully, Civ4 will provide years and years of fun as Civ1 and Civ2 did for me, but I'll be happy if I get 4 months of fun out of it.

	26-07-2005 02:54									#56
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I joined this forum at SMAC time, when Firaxis closed its official forum, so many years ago my mind have forgotten.
I loved the general feeling and the good level of many posters here at Poly, with enough few flame wars.
I stayed away from this forum when became clear that the released Civ III was quite a mess (or at least half of the promised game many of us hoped and spent so many hours debating).

I still spent some time playing Civ III Conquest, but not half as much as I played SMAC.

Civ franchise has some good point and some old and rusty side. Same with Yin: he has a straight and sometime way too strong expression of concept and debating visions.

A friend can cope with defects and forgive them, looking at bright parts of someone personality; others simply can't live with it.

When Firaxis will nail down some more details about game mechanics we can go back on topic, speaking about real facts and not about fans, as I think it should be.

When the game will be released this fall (and they must be in balancing and polishing stage today, no room left for adding features or last minute rethinking, sorry) we'll have our time for happy and sad players count, newbie Poly members looking for game info and veterans leaving slamming the door.

Now it's summer time: please relax and forgive, life's too short.

	26-07-2005 12:23									#57
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Darkstar, please try to read and understand my messages before you reply to it.
I'm not the most evil dude in history, so I'll try to explain it to you. I have no problem with criticism. What I more or less tried to say was that yin is not waiting for a new civilization game, but for a total new game. cIV will for that reason never meet his expectations.
I wonder if it's a good reason to be on this forum if you're not a fan of the civ series anymore.

please don't think that simplistic in black and white, like I only want people to praise firaxis or civ. that's a totally different topic.

	26-07-2005 20:51									#58
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How 'bout you wait for the game to be released, then gripe.

Attachment: fn2.jpg
This has been downloaded 45 time(s).

	26-07-2005 22:10									#60
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AWESOME!!!!!