24-07-2005 20:35									#61
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I know that, Yin. I'm not trolling or something. And trust me, Civ IV will be better than you think.

After all, it is totally (as said) moddable. This will keep everybody happy. The easy pleased masses (me and Dr. Zoidberg) will play the vanilla game at low levels, the modders will redesign the entire game, Poly will organize the "1st Civ IV DG" (I'm in! ), Firaxis will made a LOT of money and you will say "I told you!".
The world is a perfect place to play civ...

	24-07-2005 21:14									#62
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Yin:

Firaxis has significantly changed since Civ3 vanilla came out. You left this forum after being disappointed by Civ3 vanilla, and you missed what happened in the way Firaxis does things:

1. The most important thing is that Firaxis has finally acknowledged how fricking useful betatesting is. Civ3 was rushed, some patches were unbalanced because they weren't thoroughly playtested before being released. Firaxis has learned from it, and it used a betatest team for Civ3 Conquests. It happens that Civ3 Conquests is the most polished product of the whole Civ3 series.

2. The Civ franchise doesn't benefit from an automatic goodwill from the press anymore. Play the World has gotten mediocre marks. This has forced Firaxis to improve the quality of the product, as has been seen by Conquests (which also shipped with Play the World included in it).

3. The Firaxians have learned from the disappointment in Civ3, and they are now avoiding to hype the product with false promises. Before Civ3, they mentioned every project they expected to be in the game - and many eventually weren't part of the game (such as a fully functional editor - which happened only once Conquests came out). After Civ3 came out, they completely changed their strategy: when talking about future patches or expansions, everything was "no comment" until they were sure the feature would be in.

4. Firaxis wasn't abandoned by one half of the team in mid-development this time.

5. Infogreed has finally stopped being the editor of the Civ franchise. It's Rockstar now, and they make a point at having high quality games.


Overall, your point (that the game should wait a few extra monthes in order to be polished) would be valid if you had written after Civ3 vanilla came out. However, it's completely outdated now.

	24-07-2005 22:19									#63
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Spiffor:

Those are some good points, I grant you. Still, do you think that Civ 4 will be much more than a very polished warmed-over game?

	24-07-2005 22:38									#64
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Yin, I seriously think that you want to stick out in these forums just going against the rest of the people, well IT IS this way, i did not have to think a lot about it .

This thread is the prove of that and also of the degree of stupidity your posts have achived. Dont come with the BS about free speach and that i can read other posts, etc. etc. I just want you to know that almost 100% of your posts are meaningless and thats because i have not read them all.

80% of the guys here are hardcore or at least very devote players and YOU know that we would never tolerate such a delay.

Dont want to be rude, but your presence annoys me. You are like the ugly chick that is always negative because she never got scored. And never will because that attitude.

You can critic, but when i read "basically we get a CIV III with 3d graphics", says to me that you have only scratched the surface of the game and come to Apolyton to say bull ****.

	24-07-2005 22:48									#65
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yin

I personally agree with everything that Spiffor mentioned, and I believe that Civ4 will have significantly more polish than Civ3. It sounds like it will have out of the box multiplayer and editor functions. Also one of the previews indicated that wonder movies and other small touches like that might come back. I know the betatesters won't get all of the bugs, but I don't think that Civ4 will have too many bugs. (crosses my fingers) Civ3 was subpar in terms of polish and features when first released. I mean it wasn't until they released Civ3 that they acknowledged Civ3 didn't include multiplayer. I don't think that Civ4 will have those problems, simply because I think losing half your team in middevelopment cycle is a complete disaster.

I do worry about other things like balance choices that suits my personal preferences, but delaying the game till easter or even till easter ten years from now won't change that.

	24-07-2005 23:30									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor 4. Firaxis wasn't abandoned by one half of the team in mid-development this time. 5. Infogreed has finally stopped being the editor of the Civ franchise. It's Rockstar now, and they make a point at having high quality games. Overall, your point (that the game should wait a few extra monthes in order to be polished) would be valid if you had written after Civ3 vanilla came out. However, it's completely outdated now.

Exactly

	24-07-2005 23:45									#67
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH My biggest hope is that they've changed MP so that games dont have to be played 'all at once', but instead can be saved and continued later (which they seem to have done). My worst fear is that they will pull 'a CIV3' and remove MP.

Go read the previews at Gamespot and other major sites. That was among the first issues they addressed when they sat down to talk about cIV.

quote: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/preview_6129411.html For Civ IV, Firaxis went ahead and designed a multiplayer game first, which has paid off dividends for the single-player game. "We got all the rules set using the multiplayer engine, and then by using that, we learned what players would do. And that helped us write the AI," Briggs said.

korn: Wonder movies are definitely back.

quote: http://pc.ign.com/articles/614/614551p3.html Barry Caudill: We have definitely ramped up the production values in this version. The new 3D world and all that it brings will certainly up the ante over any previous version of the game, we're hiring voice talent for various parts, and I am happy to announce the return of wonder movies...we'll have over 45 spectacular movies in the game.

	24-07-2005 23:57									#68
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I don't think delaying a release equals a better quality. Developers would probably add new features or try to 'improve' features and at the new release date you would still have the same problems.

Also don't forget they are already working on this for 2 years. You cannot keep a developer team on the payroll for a long period without them producing something that generates money.

Last but not least, some bugs only appear when a massive number of users are playing it so delaying it will not change this....

We can only hope that in the 2 years they worked on this project they had a good quality plan and off course stuck to it...

	25-07-2005 00:14									#69
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Dr Zoidberg: Don't get me wrong...I don't begrudge anybody's right to enjoy Civ 4, and I do think you know a good game when you see one. At the same time, I don't feel the need to be quiet on such topics as warmed-over remakes, etc. Perhaps the profits made off of Civ 4 will push Firaxis to do something far more original and engaging. Would be nice.

It´s ok. You wouldn´t be Yin if you were on the same side as everyone else

Didn´t you at one time plan a game of your own? Whatever happened to that? I would really like to see a TBS game done by someone who has given the subject as much thought as you have! If Vel can do his Candle´Bre I´m sure you can too

	25-07-2005 00:23									#70
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 Yin, I seriously think that you want to stick out in these forums just going against the rest of the people, well IT IS this way, i did not have to think a lot about it . This thread is the prove of that and also of the degree of stupidity your posts have achived. Dont come with the BS about free speach and that i can read other posts, etc. etc. I just want you to know that almost 100% of your posts are meaningless and thats because i have not read them all. 80% of the guys here are hardcore or at least very devote players and YOU know that we would never tolerate such a delay. Dont want to be rude, but your presence annoys me. You are like the ugly chick that is always negative because she never got scored. And never will because that attitude. You can critic, but when i read "basically we get a CIV III with 3d graphics", says to me that you have only scratched the surface of the game and come to Apolyton to say bull ****.

* Dr Z turns over his flame resistant desk and takes cover

	25-07-2005 00:35									#71
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I don't want it delayed til easter, what if I'm dead by then. Not that I'm planning on it, but I would rather get a few months of joy out of it, than wait in anticipation only to pass away before an easter release. You never know when you'll be hit by a bus.

	25-07-2005 00:59									#72
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Well, there´s nothing that says that you can´t be hit by a bus before december. So, then you´re ****ed anyway...

	25-07-2005 01:34									#73
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quote: originally posted by Spiffor Overall, your point (that the game should wait a few extra monthes in order to be polished) would be valid if you had written after Civ3 vanilla came out. However, it's completely outdated now.

Don't both Spiff. Yin is predisposed to hate any new Civ game that is being announced. I wonder if he liked anything in SMAC (IMO the best Civ-type game ever made).

	25-07-2005 02:01									#74
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Nah, I'm not going to engage in flame wars. Not my style. Like I said, I think I've made my arguments, and those who read them, I'm sure, will at least understand the spirit in which they were posted: I want a great Civ 4, not Civ 2.7 -- Still, MP from the ground up and good modding are quite nice.

Imran: There was an awful lot I liked about SMAC, though the color scheme made my head hurt. Don't know. Maybe I'm just very sensitive visually...and I mean in a medical way. If I don't have certain lighting and resolution at work, I can't work for more than a few hours without getting a bad headache. I know most people aren't like that, so I'm cursed, I guess.

Specifically, I was making SMAC *the* game for me to play until Yang had his infinite range missiles (a huge bug that killed play on huge maps). Indeed, this is where the name Yin came from because I so detested that problem with Yang.

That said, I enjoyed the role play elements (even inspiring books). I like the idea of terraforming, even if it became tedious. I like the idea of the planet revolting if you mistreat it (though that, too, could have been done perhaps a little less heavy handed). The workshop was a neat idea if cumbersome at times. Of course, since I never look for an MP angle (I tried a few PBEM games), it wasn't long before I discovered the AI's weaknesses and the whole thing (especially with the inifinite range missile bug) lost me. Overall, though, I felt it had some really bold elements, and even if some of them weren't all that great in the end, it was at least a great effort.

	25-07-2005 02:04									#75
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Dr Zoidberg: Don't get me wrong...I don't begrudge anybody's right to enjoy Civ 4, and I do think you know a good game when you see one. At the same time, I don't feel the need to be quiet on such topics as warmed-over remakes, etc. Perhaps the profits made off of Civ 4 will push Firaxis to do something far more original and engaging. Would be nice.

Actually, if they make a serious profit, that would be incentive to change very little. On the other hand, if they don't make enough profit, publishers won't read that as Firaxis botching the details, but as customers not wanting to support the genre any more, and then we'll get NO more decent games of this type.

The best hope, then, lies in the possibility that Firaxis will do more than merely selling warmed-over meatloaf. How likely is that possibility? Who the in deuce knows.

I'd give you a Day One review but I'm probably not going to do one. On the other hand, who knows what I will do, either. Can anybody's Day One review be trusted? Don't you need to wait a month or two for folks to have enough time to test the game's legs?

I had a good time with Roller Coaster Tycoon 3, but it's got some deeply-rooted problems with the "Peeps" AI that don't become apparent until you've played half a dozen games.

quote: Originally posted by yin26 *Civ 4 will be a warmed over remake with sparkly graphics designed to fool the otherwise uncritical gamer into thinking that they actually have something new in front of them. * Many at Poly will look at and overexaggerate any little "change" (wow, the next turn button is in the upper left now!) in an effort to justify their fanboy syndrome. * And even though this has become such par for the course I'm numb to it now, there will be bugs that Firaxis will try to pawn off as feature and/or with sentiments to the effect of "Gamers actually enjoy bugs because it gives them something to talk about and their community would fall apart with nothing else to do were it not for the bugs." Yes, Firaxis QA has said this in the past. * Once again we'll realize that when Sid doesn't take firm control of a project, you get mediocrity at best and total garbage at worst. I suspect Civ 4 will be mediocre in most every way.

It's not fair to get down on folks for being starry-eyed about a game. Fanboy syndrome? It's out there. That's why "branding" is so important. Each person is their own brand name, and information consumers needs to be discerning about which brands of info they consume. Some sources are more objective or reliable than others -- and the opposite of the Fanboy is the Troll. One is optimistic beyond reason or logic, the other is pessimistic in the same way, and they tend to start flaming one another.

It's all just speculation until the game comes out.


- Sirian

	25-07-2005 02:09									#76
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Hey, I'm only down on the starry-eyed posters who decide to attack me for posting an opposing view. And being critical of what we know so far of the game isn't trolling. You might not like it, I understand, but I've heard and seen nothing that compells me Civ 4 will be much more than Civ 2.7 -- not including good modding and MP from the ground up, which could save the game.

To some extent, the failure with Civ 3 did teach Firaxis a lot, so it seems, but I'm not going to wish Civ 4 ill. Fact is, I hope Firaxis hits a homerun with Civ 4, I just see too many signs that this is just a safe design, though.

And if that disappoints me, I'll post about it if I like. Too bad for those who find this annoying.

	25-07-2005 02:27									#77
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Aro: By the way, you crack me up!

I'm going to try to adopt more of your positive energy. It's catchy.

	25-07-2005 02:30									#78
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Yin,

It's not so much that you have an opposing view, or the fact you're posting your opinion on reported game concepts. Hell, when it comes down to it I'm in the same view as you (see my comments a few years ago about CTP2 vs Civ3).

It's more the fact that you state crap that shows you obviously haven't kept up to date. It's your comments about Civ3 based on its vanilla state without acknowledging the advancement Conquests made on the game (it was actually playable, but by no means anywhere near a good game in my view). It's also the way you state your views on Civ4. You come across as the spoilt little brat stomping his feet in the supermarket shouting "I WANT a Bertie Beetle!".

These points are why I have no respect for you, and why I'll always attack your POV (even though it is in the general same line as mine).

Dale

Also, just a tip here, you're at a "Civ" site. The way you constantly bash down the core concepts of Civ doesn't sit well with the "starry-eyed posters" as you put it.

	25-07-2005 02:38									#79
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What crap? That the graphics look horrible to me? That this is a carefully measured .2 step forward to civ 2.7? The fact that a Firaxis game "was actually playable" after a ton of work past the vanilla release redeems nothing, in my view.

Finally, I'm not here to be a cuddly friend to the masses. Take me or leave me. I honestly feel we have Civ 2.7 coming, and if I feel like posting that here, on a Civ site, I will.

	25-07-2005 03:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Those are some good points, I grant you. Still, do you think that Civ 4 will be much more than a very polished warmed-over game?

Well, Civ4 will be a sequel. They are using the formula "1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new" to make it. So, it is clear that 2/3 of the game will feel "warmed-over" to you. But I think that's because you don't want a sequel.

Many posters here want more of the same. They want to feel again what they first felt with Civ2 / SMAC / Civ3. And radical differences would make them turn their back on the game.

I don't think that it would be bad if the game is "warmed over". To a large extent, Civ2 was a warm-over of Civ1. To a large extent, SMAC was a warm-over of Civ2. To a large extent Civ3 was a warm-over of Civ2 with some of the ideas coming from SMAC. None of these games differ from Civ1 nearly as much as the CtP series (and I'm not even speaking of Rise of nations or Europa Universalis, which are two empire-building games with a focus completely different from the Civ series)

If Civ4 can provide us with a better AI, a better interface, better multiplayer opportunities, a better moddability, a better balance etc. than Civ3/SMAC, then I'm all for it. If Civ4 also brings in some new features, while being recognizable, it's even better.

Civ4 looks like it is going to take the best of SMAC and the best of Civ3 (social engineering + borders + culture + trade) and even add religion to the mix. It will also remove some things that have proven tedious (polluted squares, revolting cities).
As a result, Civ4 should play in a largely different fashion than Civ2, while still having the same basic premise: build a urban civilization, with settlers, wonders, military units, and several ways to achieve victory.

If Firaxis delivers, that would be because they have spent much time learning from their past mistakes, thinking about design, and actually implementing their ideas. If they manage to do it, they'll manage to create a great sequel. But indeed, it won't be nearly as creative as an original project stemming from Sid's mind. That's because such creativity is not what is asked from a sequel.

Just remember how many people complained at the beginning of Civ3 that so and so were different in Civ2

As an aside, i'd love it if Sid created a new concept for an empire-building game, different from Civ. But I think he has moved on, as his latest projects were completely different.

	25-07-2005 03:12									#81
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Spiffor: Bravo on a very sensible post. Believe it or not, I'm eager to see what comes of Civ 4, and I do hope it will impress. By the way, I give SMAC a little more credit for orginality than warming-over Civ, but we needn't argue about that here.

	25-07-2005 03:25									#82
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Yin, you didn´t answer the question in my earlier post (#69)

	25-07-2005 03:43									#83
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quote: Overall, though, I felt it had some really bold elements, and even if some of them weren't all that great in the end, it was at least a great effort.

So then why poo-poo Civ4's new elements? I think you probably liked SMAC's social engineering, so isn't it good that Civ included that? What about the ability to rush up a certain tech path without bothering with others? Religion seems to be a very intersting part of the game, as well as health. The new combat model?

Every sequal, even SMAC is an evolution, not a revolution, but it seems you won't be happy unless it comes close to revolutionary.

	25-07-2005 03:46									#84
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Dr Zoidberg: Sorry about that! Truth be told, I lack any kind of programming experience (well, I can manipulate scripts like other people), and despite apperances here at times, I'm a fairly modest person who wouldn't start on something that huge with so little practical skill.

That said, I've bantered around with some of the folks doing neat things, and I have been asked here and there to review side projects. Here, too, I've often found life a bit overwhelming and couldn't make the time.

I am, however, about to do some in-depth reviews of the Age of Man mod, again by invitation. I'm quite flattered at the opportunity, frankly. And if I end up getting Civ 4, I will work very hard to give my style of review. To see what I'm talking about, look here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...+review+machine

I think that way of reviewing a game is unique (?) and respects individual differences between gamers. It's quite hard overall to do that kind of review, but I wish more places did it that way.

This is a long way of saying that while I've never embarked on making a game, I hope that my reviews are of better than average use to people. And expanding on that, I do enjoy giving feedback to games in progress.

	25-07-2005 03:47									#85
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Imran: I suppose that's close to true. However, I am becoming increasingly convinced that the modding ability and MP from the ground up could make room for a good Civ game. I'm also buying in to the argument that Firaxis learned a lesson or two from the Civ 3 vanilla debacle.

So I am officially dropping my Defcon number down 1.

	25-07-2005 04:01									#86
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I'm also buying in to the argument that Firaxis learned a lesson or two from the Civ 3 vanilla debacle. So I am officially dropping my Defcon number down 1.

Yin baby,

I realized this when you first posted the poll.

You seemed to have gone from an all out pessimistic, "hell is at hand" attack to a very, very semi-optimistic outlook if only they were given enough time.

	25-07-2005 04:02									#87
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Dr Zoidberg: Sorry about that! Truth be told, I lack any kind of programming experience (well, I can manipulate scripts like other people), and despite apperances here at times, I'm a fairly modest person who wouldn't start on something that huge with so little practical skill.

But you have the ideas. That´s equally important. You can easily find someone wo´ll do the coding for you. You´ll be the brains/marketing and someone else does the actual work.

quote: I am, however, about to do some in-depth reviews of the Age of Man mod, again by invitation. I'm quite flattered at the opportunity, frankly. And if I end up getting Civ 4, I will work very hard to give my style of review. To see what I'm talking about, look here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...+review+machine I think that way of reviewing a game is unique (?) and respects individual differences between gamers. It's quite hard overall to do that kind of review, but I wish more places did it that way.

That is a most innovative way of reviewing I must say.

	25-07-2005 05:01									#88
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Aro: By the way, you crack me up! I'm going to try to adopt more of your positive energy. It's catchy.

Well, thanks...

I'm not really so optimistic, and I don't have so much of that "positive energy"
I have a band called "Os Optimistas" (that means "The Optimistics", of course . It's a kind of joke, but for some of my bandmates isn't). Although, I am a pessimistic person in RL... Being a journalist and a political cartoonist, I'm used to the worst that the human kind produces: politicians (just kidding Arnelos!). So, when I am at Poly, I became the most optimistic person in the entire world.
It's like a therapy!

Btw, a game like that needs Yin... and Yang.

	25-07-2005 05:46									#89
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Imran: I suppose that's close to true. However, I am becoming increasingly convinced that the modding ability and MP from the ground up could make room for a good Civ game. I'm also buying in to the argument that Firaxis learned a lesson or two from the Civ 3 vanilla debacle. So I am officially dropping my Defcon number down 1.

Oh, bollocks . Remember, I've known you since pre-Civ3. You'll make some concillatory statements during production and then its Defcon 5 right before release or soon after. And you'll yo-yo between Defcon levels all the way until release.

	25-07-2005 07:22									#90
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vee4473: Indeed, the poll is clearly tongue and cheek, and I'm glad at least one person got it!

Dr Zoidberg: Do you know any desperate coders? Oh, and I'm glad you think the review system is innovative!

Aro: Needless to say, Yin is the dark part of the circle. Notice my link in my signature to explain it all...cool name for a band, by the way.

Imran: Nah. I'm getting too old anymore. My plan actually is to drop from the boards for a while, let the optimists take back over. I've said my peace.