24-07-2005 17:08									#1
	Plauges & Pestilences Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was watching the Second part of Guns, Germs and Steel and was wonding about how this fellows Geography determining winners and loosers in History could enlighten Civ gaming.

Civ takes major account of Geography, Resorces and Tecnology. But I think it is lacking in the field of Germs. As we all know New World Civilizations were devastated by old world Diseses, yet the Old world picked up very few diseases from the New. GGS atributed this to the differing levels of Animal Domestication between Old and New world. Most human diseases are transmited through and originate in our domesticated animals, this process continues even to this day with Avien Flu from China. The Old world Domesticated virtualy ALL of the worlds animals. Virtualy non were domesticated in the New World or Sub-Saharan Africa. Thus Europeans had already been exposed to and developed resistences to a smorgasboard of diseases over the course of thousands of years. Ofcorse the introduction of a new Disease (Black Plauge) was just as devastating to Europeans as it would be to anybody without imunites. The old world simply had more "plauge amunition" when it came to biological warfare intentional or unintentional.

Now how to model this process in a Civ game. First off Pluage events should be BIG events capable of making deep 25-50% cuts into your population (But populations should rebound faster with the now abundant food and space). They might as well be Empire or Continent wide event rather then a single city event. I cant think of any case ware a major disease outbreak failed to eventualy spread to all possible areas in a short time after escaping its initial breakout point. Now if we take the idea being used or Religion and adapt that to Animal Domestication then you can get new Diseases to come into the world. Each time a player researches Animal Domestication they spawn a new Disease, all the Diseases would be named so you would actualy get to have a "Small Pox" plauge or a "Cholera" Plauge. Now the cool thing is that the Discovering player imediatly gets Imunity to this new Plauge (after all they developed it their people are already exposed and coexisting with it). Forign Empires can be hit by a Plauge ofcorse and for a few turns (3-5) they suffer badly but also get imunity. Imunity last for a period of time or their could be some way of constantly creating new Plauges as time goes on. The more forign contact the player has the more Disease they will suffer but they will recover and be stronger for it. The incressed contact will accelerate them tecnologicaly and they can start to get some Medical tec to lessen the effects. These Civs will be at a major advantage when they come across more isolated Civs as they will by the mear pressence of their ships and explorors infect the locals with possibly several deadly plauges thus weakening them for a invashion.

	24-07-2005 18:39									#2
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Yes, this sounds like a nice idea, but I don't think it should be implemented to such a massive degree as it did the real world. Why? Inagine that you are on a continent with 4 other civs and are playing with 16 (yes I'm using CivIII numbers here, but that doesn't matter). You beat them up good and secure your continent. You are a massive power. You discover whatever tech is needed to cross oceans and float to the other continent that has 11 civs on it and massive amounts of disease that you are not immune to. Your pop is descimated and then they float over and slaughter your weakend defenses. Sounds very realistic, but would absolutly suck for the player. he would have lost based solely on the fact that his continent was smaller and had less civs on it. That just wouldn't be fair and would turn people off the game.

	24-07-2005 21:10									#3
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If there are 11 civs on the other continent, chances are they're too busy fighting each other to rush over to your continent and attack you. Sending a big enough force to take you down, even weakened, would leave them too vulnerable to their local enemies. That's especially true given how bad the AI was at waging overseas wars in Civ3.

	24-07-2005 21:33									#4
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any implementation of this in the game would cause players to beeline for medicine or whatever tech would eventually put a stop to this. The number of plagues described happening above would ruin the game for me, but if only one or two occurred in the game using a lot of civs, that might not be so bad.

	24-07-2005 23:53									#5
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Think of it as a way to balance the ridiculous advantage that the first player to make contact has. In Civ3, it was in your best interest to go traipsing around the world and discover every civilization in it. That was both unrealistic and hugely beneficial. However, if you risk infecting your people with a plague every time you encounter a new nation, it becomes more of a cost/benefit trade-off, as opposed to unvarnished benefit. On the other hand, you also face a risk every time a civ you know makes a contact you don't know, so maybe it doesn't balance out.

The beeline to Medicine could be countered by it only reducing, not eliminating plagues. Sanitation is far more important for that. In addition, the benefits wouldn't come from just having the tech, but also from having the improvements allowed by the tech. Hospitals, sewage systems, aqueducts, etc. all would work to reduce the effect of a plague.

	25-07-2005 01:08									#6
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quote: Originally posted by sophist If there are 11 civs on the other continent, chances are they're too busy fighting each other to rush over to your continent and attack you. Sending a big enough force to take you down, even weakened, would leave them too vulnerable to their local enemies. That's especially true given how bad the AI was at waging overseas wars in Civ3.

Not if they all are AI

once 1 finds you, they would tell 2 friends and so on and so on.

Next thing you know they all want some tech and will ally agaisnt you.

sad but true

	25-07-2005 06:35									#7
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Er... only if they program the AI to behave that way. They wouldn't, though, because that would be really annoying and unfair if plagues were in the game.

	25-07-2005 14:41									#8
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quote: Originally posted by sophist The beeline to Medicine could be countered by it only reducing, not eliminating plagues. Sanitation is far more important for that.

Better sanitation reduces the likelihood of certain killers- cholera, typhoid, dysentery- but then so does improved personal hygiene.

Better sanitation (or at least reservoirs of potable drinking water) helped the mosquito population to thrive in ancient and mediaeval Sri Lanka, and better sanitation would not necessarily eliminate smallpox or bubonic plague, or influenza- three big historical killers.

Smallpox was raging in the Incan empire when Pizarro revisited after his first contact with its distant reaches- transmitted it is believed via long distance trade or tribute networks, person to person from Colombia, and plague and influenza are well known for their devastating effects on European, Asian and world history.

	25-07-2005 18:32									#9
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quote: Originally posted by sophist Er... only if they program the AI to behave that way. They wouldn't, though, because that would be really annoying and unfair if plagues were in the game.

then that's exactly what they would do.

	25-07-2005 21:49									#10
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Better sanitation reduces the likelihood of certain killers- cholera, typhoid, dysentery- but then so does improved personal hygiene. Better sanitation (or at least reservoirs of potable drinking water) helped the mosquito population to thrive in ancient and mediaeval Sri Lanka, and better sanitation would not necessarily eliminate smallpox or bubonic plague, or influenza- three big historical killers.

I lumped that all under Sanitation since Civ doesn't have a separate tech for Bathing and Not Being Gross.

quote: Originally posted by H Tower then that's exactly what they would do.

Do you think maybe then the problem is the programmers, not the plagues? You can make every single feature annoying, too powerful, too weak, etc. If it's implemented badly, don't blame the feature, blame the implementors.

	28-07-2005 00:23									#11
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Call to Power did a good job of biological warfare. An outbreak of disease that occured in one city had a certain chance of spreading to other cities that were connected with trade routes.
I think it would be great if plagues and pandemics were portrayed, but I don't think it's going to happen.
If a city was full of yellow fever, it would affect its population level and ability to produce and trade- not too hard to model in a game I think. And you might think twice about attacking it with your army too...

	28-07-2005 06:14									#12
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I don't think the plague would be a whole lot of fun.
Nothing bothers me more than having a city lose inhabitants to disease because they haven't figured out mosquito nets in civ 3

	30-07-2005 12:47									#13
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extend that thing of disease to units in foreign territory. Also it would be a good idea to increase the chance of disease if swamps or jungles are nearby, affecting either units or cities.

	30-07-2005 14:15									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander D extend that thing of disease to units in foreign territory. Also it would be a good idea to increase the chance of disease if swamps or jungles are nearby, affecting either units or cities.

Not just the tropics though: Napoleon's Grand Army marching on Russia were severely afflicted by scorched earth tactics and lack of potable and clean water, leading to great outbreaks of typhus.

quote: Within a few days of crossing the Niemen, several soldiers began to develop high fevers and pink rashes on their bodies. Typhus had broken out in the Grande Armée, and, because of this scourge, most soldiers would not see Moscow.

quote: Typhus has always been associated with war. Indeed, one of its many colloquial names is war fever. Zinsser (1934) stated, "Typhus had come to be the inevitable and expected companion of war and revolution; no encampment, no campaigning army, and no besieged city escaped it." Rickettsia prowazekii (da Rocha-Lima), a bacterialike organism, causes the dreadful disease. The human body louse, Pediculus humanus L., has been a scourge to humans for centuries. It transmits typhus to humans and humans return the "favor" by infecting the louse, which is also a victim of the disease, seldom surviving its attack. Typhus truly is a disease of humans and lice; no animal reservoirs are known to be involved in the disease cycle.

http://scarab.msu.montana.edu/histo...phus_russia.htm


Tropical diseases saw off many of the first Europeans to explore West Africa and the Indonesian archipelago, and yellow fever transmitted to the Caribbean carried off American troops in the Spanish-American War.

quote: American soldiers were jaundiced and running high fevers (the term Yellow Fever stems from the combination of jaundice and fever). In its advanced stages, victims often vomited dark blood, giving the deadly malady another nickname..."the black vomit". Secretary Alger ordered General Shafter to separate his forces into two camps: the sick camps, and the well camps. The largest of the sick camps was the makeshift tent hospital at Siboney. Those who were well, did their best to keep a distance from those who were sick.

http://www.homeofheroes.com/wallofh...15_closing.html

	30-07-2005 14:33									#15
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FYI
there is a scenario in conquests with plague on

	30-07-2005 14:45									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex FYI there is a scenario in conquests with plague on

I'll see you smallpox blankets and raise you ivory carvers' elephant anthrax.

quote: Seidemann, R. M. and Wheeler, H. M. Human anthrax from elephant's tusks. Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 135, 837. 1947.

	30-07-2005 20:48									#17
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I'll see you smallpox blankets and raise you ivory carvers' elephant anthrax.

And the obfuscating underdog agenda strikes again!

	31-07-2005 08:10									#18
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I have to say that I never did understand why players were so hostile to plagues being introduced in Civ3. I never play the game without plagues being on-and when I do suffer from them, I just play on until I get over it! If I had a complaint about Civ3 plagues, it was that there felt like an 'all or nothing' approach to it. I reckon that with the health system they will have in Civ4, plagues can be given greater 'gradations' of intensity-where how quickly it spreads, and how long it lasts-or even whether it occurs or not-will depend on the overall health of your nation. This way, players can have a greater role to play in reducing the impacts of plagues-thus increasing the realism of the game, whilst at the same time making the whole thing a lot fairer.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker

	31-07-2005 19:33									#19
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quote: Originally posted by ArchdukeNewell And the obfuscating underdog agenda strikes again!

What a purty mouth you have Elmer.

	01-08-2005 02:57									#20
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I wouldn't be negative to plagues being in the game, as long as it's done properly. BTW, wasn't there a Black Plague event in Conquest? I don't know if it was well implemented, but at least the team has tried it in the last version of the game!

	01-08-2005 23:35									#21
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I love the concept of having plagues in the game, but agree that a "realistic" implementation would ruin the fun for the player by being way overpowering. A more abstracted implementation like in C3C seems to be the way to go.

Although, it didn't seem to follow a logical pattern of how cities were "infected." I'd like for it to be more of a progression where you can see the direction the epidemic is spreading. You should then have options to try and "quarantine" cities from it.

	01-08-2005 23:40									#22
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I think an approach somewhere along the lines of Crusader Kings could do it: People die, the wealth of the area drops majorly, building things takes considerable longer time. The plague spreads rapidly, but after some time, province after province(here: city) gets immune. Untill another plague comes by. But in that game, only 2 plagues comes during the ca. 300 years it lasts, and both comes pretty near each other(the time of the Black Plague), so you have a hard time then, but only then.

	02-08-2005 08:05									#23
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Plagues are cool! But hard to implement. And human players would eventually take most of the advantage from it

	02-08-2005 09:53									#24
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Implementing a system that would "replicate" what happened historically between the America's and Eurasia is unrealistic:

1. It would make the game less fun
2. That specific outcome is based on the specific realites of the planet earth- playing on some imagined map there is no reason to think this the inevitable event. This is compounded by the fact that the real life biological factors that lead to the disparity (ie. lack of close living between masses of humans and masses of domesticated animals) between the continents would not be assumed to be in effect in any civ game since that would mean the civs would have to be weaker and less productive in one continent than the other, when all civs are assume to begin equally.

What should be implemented though is the constant threat of both local pestilence and mass pandemics (like the Black plague) breaking out at large intervals but having devastating effects. Lets not forget that the Roman empire suffered greatly in the 3rd century from a series of massive plagues, thought to be the coming of smallpox to Europe from China and India for the first time.

	02-08-2005 14:06									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Although, it didn't seem to follow a logical pattern of how cities were "infected." I'd like for it to be more of a progression where you can see the direction the epidemic is spreading. You should then have options to try and "quarantine" cities from it.

Perhaps involving the (temporary) sacrifice of some trading routes- given that some epidemics have originated from goods (and their carriers) shipped long distance or overseas- like the plagues that struck early mediaeval Byzantium (thought to be connected with the ivory and gold trade with East and Central Africa) and the English ships that brought the Black Death to Norway in the 14th Century.

Or it could delay any ships in port, or the establishment of any new trade routes, for several turns- like the quarantines established in Venice and Ragusa in response to the Black Death.

	02-08-2005 20:50									#26
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In some ways, it might be better for game balance to extend and strengthen the current disease from flood plains and jungles. Civs that live there would hurt from it, but it would also provide a natural defense against invaders. Of course, that presupposes modelling immunities as well, but that shouldn't be hard. Instead of having one generic disease, perhaps they should have a number of them (say, seven?) that are prevalent in certain areas of the world. People who live there suffer, but eventually garner an immunity, but there is occasionally an outbreak that spreads along their trade routes to other areas.

	03-08-2005 13:33									#27
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I'd say one (potential) disease type per continent (the further the better) per epoch. Like in America, before the spaniards arrive, and with the Black Death, these diseases were carried from one continent to another by either a trade route or just exploration. Just assign a random number associated with "first contact" with a civilization overseas to unleash a epidemy. Also, in time to time, a random number can pop-up a disease that connect two civilizations that already have contact, like China and Europe.

Cities near jungles are a interesting thing: As a rule of thumb, I'd say for the city located near or in flood plains or jungles, if the civilization that founded the city is originary of the area, a certain immunity level is assigned (valid for the area only), if not, inmunity can be archived after many turns (say 20 generations). To keep things simple, just a immunity factor to continental diseases is set for each city at the time of the founding. Also another immunity factor is set for the entire specific civilization, based on the location of their original city and valid for the continent they are in. If that civilization starts spreading to other regions (i.e., other continents or portions far away) the immunity factor for new cities will be lower, and when this factor is compared against the terrain health hazard, and if lower, a smaller growing rate can be used there.

	03-08-2005 18:54									#28
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Give each citizen of a city a degree of immunity (0-100, say) for each of the seven diseases. Then it's a die roll to see who dies if the disease appears in a city. Settlers and Workers are built using citizens, so they bring along whatever immunity the citizens have. New citizens and units constructed by a city have the average immunity of the city in which they appear. A citizen's immunity changes randomly over time (mutation). Certain scientific discoveries (Vaccination, for instance) increase citizens' immunity.

The spread of disease is a little trickier. Is the disease carried or does it spawn randomly from time to time? In the former case, anytime two foreign units come into contact (or a unit with a city), with contact being defined as being in neighboring tiles, any diseases carried by one will be transmitted to the other. Diseases should also spread along trade routes.

Edit: Also, I'm realizing that most people are assuming that the only outcome of plague is death. Even the worst plagues had "only" about a 33% fatality rate, and that only in some places. Many people didn't get infected, and many of those didn't die. So maybe what happens with a plague is that some number of citizens become sick. Sick citizens can't work. Then some number of them die and the rest recover.

Last edited by sophist on 03-08-2005 at 19:22

	03-08-2005 19:22									#29
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I realy dont think theirs much need to do disease and Imunity at any levele lower then Empire wide. If plauges jump from city to city then eventualy your whole empire will be effected anyway. Its just simpler to make a Plauge hit your whole empire at once over the course of several turns. The destruction can be spread out so no one city is ruined completly but the whole empire feels a big sting overall.

My thinking is for Plauges to be a bit like Religions (the irony) they spread from a place of origin and eventualy reach everyware. Your whole Empire gets imunity after a plauge so it dosn't need to be tracked for each city (which would add a lot of complexity). Rather its like the Chicken Pox, get it once and then your imune. Plauges could sprout up at regular intervals to keep populations in check durring the middle ages. Late game population growth would be greatly linked to the fact that new medicines alow you to treat diseses.

	03-08-2005 22:19									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] I realy dont think theirs much need to do disease and Imunity at any levele lower then Empire wide. If plauges jump from city to city then eventualy your whole empire will be effected anyway. Its just simpler to make a Plauge hit your whole empire at once over the course of several turns. The destruction can be spread out so no one city is ruined completly but the whole empire feels a big sting overall.

You still need some reasoning about how the disease spreads and how hard it hits. This kind of mechanism also makes it clearer to the player what is happening, giving them the ability to manage it. I think players would find it frustrating if it was completely random, and they were completely powerless to do anything about it. The way I describe is mostly deterministic and suggests ways that a player could protect his/her civ from such an epidemic. A player should be able to make sense of it.

Candidates for diseases in the game:
Bubonic plague
Smallpox
Cholera
Typhus
Influenza