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Do you agree with the 18-year sentence for Franck and Patricia? (See details in OP) (Time out:0 days after 28-07-2005, 02:24)
The 18-year sentence was too long
The 18-year sentence sounds about right
The 18-year sentence was too short
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DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 02:22 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Did these French pedophile parents get a proper sentence? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Instant Poly verdict, please. Franck and Patricia got 18 years in jail apiece. Is this sentence too short, about right, or too long?

The allegations are bolded.

quote:

Child abuse gang horrifies France
By Sarah Shenker
BBC News

France has been shocked by the scale of abuse revealed at the Angers paedophile trial, where 65 adults were accused of sexually abusing 45 children.

It was the biggest criminal trial in recent French history.

The abused were aged from six months to 14 years, and some of them were prostituted and raped by their own parents and grandparents, in a poor district of the town in western France.

Sometimes they were offered to strangers in return for small amounts of money, food, alcohol or cigarettes.

The accused were mostly from deprived backgrounds and many of them were unemployed and had learning difficulties. Some were illiterate and appeared not to fully understand the charges they faced, defence lawyers said.

A number said they had been sexually abused themselves as children.

"These were people in difficulty, excluded from normal society, who found each other. And for them, everything was sexualised," said Brigitte Chirat, who covered the case for the local newspaper Le Courrier de l'Ouest.

Paedophile ring

At the trial - lasting more than four months and involving about 60 lawyers and 150 witnesses - a prosecutor described how some of the men would call each other and suggest "going for a coffee" as code for visiting one of the homes where the rapes and abuse would take place.

The videotaped testimony of the children provided most of the horrific details of abuse, which took place between 1999 and 2002.

At the centre of the paedophile ring were Franck, 36, and his former wife Patricia, 32, both sentenced to more than 15 years in prison. Their full names cannot be given so as to preserve the anonymity of the victims.

The charges stated that for years, Franck and his father Philippe, now 59, and two dozen others raped Franck's daughter Marine, aged seven at the time of the first attack.

Franck and Patricia prostituted Marine, her younger sister and their little brother. Another half-dozen children were abused in their home, on about 100 different occasions.


Philippe was sentenced to 28 years in prison.

"These were families with serious paedophile behaviour," prosecution spokesman Herve Lollic said.

Another of the alleged key players in the ring, identified as Eric, was described as an "ogre" and known to the children as "the fatty". He was found guilty of raping or abusing more than 10 children.

Eric's brother Jean-Marc was also found guilty of abuse.

Late intervention

As each of the defendants testified, a picture emerged of a cluster of three families in which adults abused each other's children, often in the same room.

Courtroom in Angers
A special courtroom was built to accommodate the trial

"As one expert at the trial said, these were people who were unable to manage their sexual impulses. And nobody told them these things shouldn't be done, " Ms Chirat told the BBC News website.

One question which remains unanswered is why it took so long for the authorities to become aware of the abuse.

A defence lawyer pointed out that 21 of the 23 families involved in the case had been monitored by French social workers. The first report of abuse was in 1999, but the investigation only began in earnest in 2002.

A spokesman for the president of the Maine et Loire regional council said social services were not to blame.

"We are not auxiliaries for the police," he said, pointing out that no charges had been laid against any social workers. "But obviously, in a case like this, we will reflect on how we can improve our work."

Demand for rethink

Ms Chirat said the child protection system failed and should be reviewed. For example, social workers used to always call ahead before making visits, she said.

The police should also review how it deals with ex-offenders once they are released, she added.

Three of those on trial had a previous conviction for child abuse, and were supposed to be under some kind of supervision.

Herve Lollic said he believed France now took the tragedy of paedophilia seriously, but that efforts still needed to be made to tackle the problem.

"Little by little police and magistrates have recognised the issue and looked at it differently. But I fear that these things do not just happen in Angers," he said.

Datajack Franit is offline Datajack Franit
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Bologna
Aug 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 02:44 Visit Datajack Franit's homepage!
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GAS THEM

Snotty is offline Snotty
Prince

Dec 2002
time: 05:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 02:49
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Bubba should be given some new friends

el freako is offline el freako
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Bristol, European Union
Oct 1999
time: 05:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 03:17
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This is rather close to my heart because my ex-wife had a similar thing happen to her (abuse from the age of 18 months until she was 11, culminating with her being 'hired out' for a weekend to a dozen men).
In her case the abuse was carried out by a babysitter (from 18 months to 3 years) and her maternal grandfather (from 5 to 11 years) - I think that what she said about her mothers reaction to all this that her mother was also regularly abused as a child as well.

This sort of abuse tends to serious undermine the mental stability of the children when they become adults and I note that the sentence for the Grandfather - 28 years - is much higher than the ones for the parents.

I think that, from the limited information above, the sentances are about right.

Dis is offline Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 03:20 Visit Dis's homepage!
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I read no further than this:

quote:
65 adults were accused of sexually abusing 45 children.
and determined the sentence was too short.

I would make a good juror. I don't need all the facts. Just give me one striking detail such as that, that's all I need to determine how guilty they are.

Dis is offline Dis
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time: 21:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 03:26 Visit Dis's homepage!
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This is perhaps the most horrific story I have ever read.

A father raping his own 7 year old daughter? And allowing others to do the same? Nothing less than the death sentences is appropiate punishment.

And I don't want to say something insensitive in light of such a tragic story, but it needs to be said. It has been suggested that america's prudish attitudes towards sex is breeding paedophiles. Obviously this is not the case. As France is not a prudish country like the U.S. Europeans need to wake up to the child abuse problem in their countries. It amazes me the social service workers defending their actions in this story. 3 years to start an investigation? Outrageous.

Straybow is offline Straybow
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time: 23:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 03:27 Visit Straybow's homepage!
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quote:
The accused were mostly from deprived backgrounds and many of them were unemployed and had learning difficulties. Some were illiterate and appeared not to fully understand the charges they faced, defence lawyers said.

A number said they had been sexually abused themselves as children.

"These were people in difficulty, excluded from normal society, who found each other. And for them, everything was sexualised," said Brigitte Chirat, who covered the case for the local newspaper Le Courrier de l'Ouest.

Sounds like she's trying to romanticize their "plight."

"...then, from across the room, their eyes met."
"Hey big fella! You want my daughter? She's a virgin. I'd whore myself for cigarettes but I figured it's easier to turn her out."

I have a sense that French prisons aren't the toughest place to do time. Maybe 18 years is enough, maybe not.

Solver is offline Solver
Apolyton Duke Of Something
Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 03:28 Visit Solver<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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On the one hand, it's about right.

On the other hand, I don't really believe there exists such a thing as a right jail sentence, or at least it exists very rarely. To me, it's comparing apples and oranges. I believe that, when possible, the sentence should be something to undo the crime as completely as possible - returning stolen stuff, etc. However, jailtime served by rapists or similar criminals really don't undo the crimes. I don't feel it's possible to translate offenses such as this into years in jail. I prefer to compare it to how you can not translate kilograms into seconds or angstrems into decibels. It's just absolutely different things.

LDiCesare is offline LDiCesare
King
La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 04:04
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You should really add a banana option to your poll. They judges and jury spent 4 months and a half in trial and 9 full days enclosed to deliberate, decide on culpability and what amount of jail should be done for whom. Maybe we can't know every fact exactly. I don't think we can voice a correct opinion here.
That said, I think people who do that kind of things should be permanently banned from society.
Solver, what do you propose when a crime cannot be undone? Particularly knowing that people committing sexual crimes tend to repeat them unless restrained.

Solver is offline Solver
Apolyton Duke Of Something
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 04:08 Visit Solver<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Solver, what do you propose when a crime cannot be undone? Particularly knowing that people committing sexual crimes tend to repeat them unless restrained.


I do not have a better proposal - in sexual crimes, jail serves the useful and neccessary function of isolating the criminal from commiting more crimes.

In a perfect world, we could know if a person truly regrets his crime and will never commit a crime again, and set him free. Then again, in a perfect world we wouldn't have crimes in the first place.

LDiCesare is offline LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 04:19
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quote:
In a perfect world, we could know if a person truly regrets his crime and will never commit a crime again

People often do things they know they will regret. For instance, eating too much. See that nice chocolate bar? You shouldn't eat it. But it looks so good... You did that in the past and sincerely regretted doing it (particularly since you no longer fit in your trousers) but won't you do it again? I'm unsure sexual perverts would be able to resist their urges, even if they wanted to.
The jury had to answer to more 1974 questions, (like: is XXX guilty of doing this, is it aggravated by that, is there a circumstance that bla bla bla...). The guilty people should certainly go in jail for an additional 5 months in order to relieve the poor guys of the jury who were unable to go to work during 4 months and a half, and were effectively jailed for 9 days when issuing the sentence.

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 04:25 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
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lifetime with bubba

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 09:22
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I think consecutive sentences should be used a bit more.

Pekka is offline Pekka
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:03
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Dis, oh come one! There's been like a hundred pedophile threads and you still spell it paedophile? COme on! PEDOPHILE. EASY!

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:04
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Is he criticising your Finnish, Pekka?

Pekka is offline Pekka
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:06
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No, but then again my Finnish is perfect, and it's twice as difficult as this puny inferior crap. And no, you can't make comments on my englando, since it's not my native language.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:08
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Well, I can make an observation that you obviously don't know enough about English to be a school marm, since you are wrong.

Paedophile is a proper, English spelling of the word.

Pekka is offline Pekka
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:18
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OK I'm sorry. I did not know that. I admit that I thought it was spelled wrong but it seems like I was wrong. Well thank you for teaching me a new thing today.

Last edited by Pekka on 28-07-2005 at 10:24

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:19
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Beaver, Pekka. Do try and keep it straight.

Pekka is offline Pekka
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:20
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Beaver? What are you talking about? I don't understand?

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
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Aug 2001
time: 22:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:22
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Oh sure, accuse me of consorting with your reindeer girlfriend, and then edit the post. Go ahead.

Pekka is offline Pekka
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:25
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reindeer? beaver? I'm sorry... I think you are speaking in dialect I am not familiar with..

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:26
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Oh, another edit.

We shall call you DanS^2.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:27
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... or should that be ^3? Hmmm.

Pekka is offline Pekka
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Feb 2002
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:28
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edit schmedit... I think the DEA is after you.. they wanted a beaverman/reindeerdude. I think that might be you.. supposedly doing acid in the nude, and hanging out with paedophiles.

NO MORE THREADJACKING!

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
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Aug 2001
time: 22:37
  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:32
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Come, come, now Pekka. When you told me that you would ruin all the moose for me by inserting your girth in them, like you've already done to the reindeer, I simply pointed out that it was the beaver you needed to go after.

Then you edited to something that sounded like an attempt to immitate an Englishman saying 'pip, pip, good show wot' and now we are at the laying down like a beaten beagle edit.

Really, your initial post had more comedy merit. Should have left it.

Pekka is offline Pekka
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:34
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I'm sorry. Can you ever forgive me?

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:36
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Probably not. However, I will consider it.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:40 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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better than those stupid life sentences handed out for just about anything in the USA.

These people are rural poor and I don't think its that uncommon in the rural or urban underclass for this kind of thing to go on, and not just in France.

As was made clear in the story, these people didn't know any better. Doesn't make it right of course.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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  Old Post 28-07-2005 10:45
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quote:
nobody told them these things shouldn't be done


In what sort of bass ackwards part of the script from Deliverance could that be true?

 
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