02-08-2005 03:32									#121
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quote: Protestants were the majority and therefore democratically entitled to hold power in NI. It was also a peaceful province with the two communities living side by side relatively well. The Irish were in no way treated the same way as the South African blacks.

Look, you really, really need to take your head out of the sand and READ. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you seem to have some genuine misconceptions of the situation in the North.

- Please read up on the A specials, B specials (definitely this group at least) and the C specials. Come on, if the two communities lived so harmoniously, what was the need for these paramilitary forces?

- With regard to my South Africa analogy; no, it wasn't as bad as South Africa - discrimination was far less overt in NI. I suggest reading up on the allocation of council housing practices, job opportunities for Catholics in the North (e.g. civil service) and the role of the RUC in the North. Catholics were in effect banned from almost all well-paid jobs.

- Democracy? Once again I direct you towards the policies of gerrymandering. Unionists would still have enjoyed a majority indeed if gerrymandering had not been practiced, but they would have lost control of local councils and such, allowing for substantial improvement in the treatment of Catholics in strongly Catholic areas.

	02-08-2005 03:45									#122
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All we are saying is give co-dominion a chance.

	02-08-2005 03:59									#123
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quote: Originally posted by our_man Not a lot. There were some pogroms against Protestant landlords in Cork, but I think Ireland was a beacon of tolerance compared to other countries that have had an oppressive minority lose power.

ireland was hardly the worst state in the world, but they did take some measures against protestants, as well as them having to live in what was effectively a catholic theocracy, they had to put up with things like discrimination in public life and that all children of mixed marriages were required to be brought up as catholics. this (alongside other things) has meant that the percentage of protestants in the south has gone from 10% in 1921 to around 4% now.

quote: For people like Cockney out there who believe that the 6 counties should remain part of the UK, read up on the joke that was the Boundary Commission of 1926, and especially the biased role Justice Feetham (who was meant to be non-partisan) played in making sure that heavily Catholic areas were awarded to the NI apartheid state. Protestants/Unionists were only in the majority in 4 counties. Let's face it, if the Unionists/British government hadn't been so greedy back then, they would be ruling over a much reduced area, but with a largely homogenous population of Protestants. The argument though is such a smaller area would have been economically unviable in the long run. So I don't think I'll object too much if reunification occurs, and they're a few die-hard Unionists a bit put out by the change in borders.

what happened in 1926 has very little baring on the situation now, the borders were drawn up and NI as an entity will not be changed, the six counties will remain together, so lets get that out of the way.

the fact that catholics were treated very badly in the past is not a reason to surrender NI to the catholic south. things have changed in the north, the electoral system is just now, discrimination in employment, education etc. is outlawed and i think it's fair to say that catholics have achieved equality with protestants there. the way forward for NI is for the terrorists, on both sides, to give up their guns and work for a peaceful future for the province, as part of the UK.

	02-08-2005 04:04									#124
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and btw saxonking, welcome to the forum. let me tell you about agathon, if you look up 'wrong' in the dictionary you'll see a picture of his fat face, so take the opposite position to him on every issue and you'll do alright.

	02-08-2005 14:59									#125
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Yah but aggies comment was about ALL unionists, presumably the Trimbles as well the Paisleys. Was every unionist pre 1969 a bigoted Catholic killer?

No- it's typical Aggie overkill to claim 'All Unionists Are Mindless Bigots' and it simply perpetuates the unhelpful rhetoric and attitudes present on both sides of the religious/political divide.

I was brought up to despise Protestants, and wasn't allowed to join any youth organisation that was not avowedly Catholic- no Cubs or Scouts for me.

Thankfully I failed to see the point in enshrining in sacred memory what the Black and Tans did 40 or so years before I was born- that's what I think of as 'The Kosovo Field Syndrome', which of course has done so much to make the Balkans the peaceful pleasant place it is today.

I've met Ulster Protestants who were afraid to go into Catholic areas (even though they had Catholic friends) because they thought that someone could tell from looking at them that they were not Catholic- and vice versa.

I've met Protestants who believed that Catholics in Eire and the Six Counties were dark haired because their ancestors slept with shipwrecked Spanish sailors from the Armada, and so on, ad nauseam.

Maintaining a sectarian divide in state schooling is the first mistake- if there's one thing that unites the ideologues on both sides in opposition it's secular education of schoolchildren, Catholic and Protestant.

	02-08-2005 15:20									#126
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quote: Look, you really, really need to take your head out of the sand and READ. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you seem to have some genuine misconceptions of the situation in the North.

I dont think so, like I said I do have a good knowledge of the history of Northern Ireland and I stick by the fact that the Catholics and Protestants in NI got on relatively well prior to the troubles.

quote: - Please read up on the A specials, B specials (definitely this group at least) and the C specials. Come on, if the two communities lived so harmoniously, what was the need for these paramilitary forces?

There was no need for paramilitary forces anymore than there was a need for terrorism. I never said the two peoples lived in harmonyand I agree with you that the discrimination against the Catholics was
bad but that was decades ago and is no way an excuse for the murders ofinnocent civillians (and soldiers I might add).

Remember also the fact that when British troops were sent into the province they were greeted with relief by the Catholic population who saw the the army as their protector from the RUC.

quote: - With regard to my South Africa analogy; no, it wasn't as bad as South Africa - discrimination was far less overt in NI. I suggest reading up on the allocation of council housing practices, job opportunities for Catholics in the North (e.g. civil service) and the role of the RUC in the North. Catholics were in effect banned fromalmost all well-paid jobs.

I don't appreciate your condescending tone. I know full well the discrimination that Catholics suffered in NI pre the Troubles but that was decades ago, it might aswell be ancient history it bears little weight on the discussion of the Irish question today.
How can the Unionists be called bigots for not wanting to negotiate with the murderers of their people, especially when they still glorify those murders. Its going to take time for the Unionists and the Catholics to trust each other again, you cant expect words from a terrorist organisation to have much sway in the minds of their enemies, there have been too many false promises and peace deals.

quote: - Democracy? Once again I direct you towards the policies of gerrymandering. Unionists would still have enjoyed a majority indeed if gerrymandering had not been practiced, but they would have lost control of local councils and such, allowing for substantial improvement in the treatment of Catholics in strongly Catholic areas.

Look I've already said that I agree with you, the Catholics then had genuine concerns but you must remember that it is the Unionists that hold the democratic majority in Northern Ireland and until that situation is no longer true, the province will be part of the United Kingdom for the foreseeable future.
Now hopfefully the province can have a devolved powersharing parliament soon but its going to take much more than words from the IRA to make that happen.

quote: and btw saxonking, welcome to the forum. let me tell you about agathon, if you look up 'wrong' in the dictionary you'll see a picture of his fat face, so take the opposite position to him on every issue and you'll do alright

Thank you, I'll keep that in mind.

	02-08-2005 15:21									#127
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The reason for unification is obvious. The only reason Ireland is divided is British meddling in Irish affairs. Meddling that has gone on for hundreds of years.

If the Protestants love Britain so much they can **** off there. The worst thing that the IRA ever did was fail to assassinate Thatcher.

	02-08-2005 15:32									#128
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quote: Originally posted by SaxonKing I dont think so, like I said I do have a good knowledge of the history of Northern Ireland and I stick by the fact that the Catholics and Protestants in NI got on relatively well prior to the troubles.

Umm, no they didn't. Co-existence in the same territory is not 'getting on relatively well' if it involves blatant discrimination and intimidation by one community against another.

quote: The objective of securing a united independent Ireland, by force if necessary, remained, and there were IRA campaigns in the 1920s, 1940s and 1950s. For many unionists the new arrangements and the union itself could only be maintained with constant vigilance. Emergency legislation was introduced on a permanent basis; a police force and police reserve was established which was almost exclusively Protestant; local government electoral boundaries were openly gerrymandered, a stratagem also used by nationalists when they were able to do so; and a system of economic discrimination was introduced against the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland. This minority formed about one third of the population for most of the twentieth century, and currently represents around 40 per cent.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/facets.htm

I heartily recommend the Cain Project's website to you.

quote: If the Protestants love Britain so much they can **** off there.

Agathon


I think you'll find they already are there. I had no idea that you were such a fan of repatriation of ethnic/religious minorities.

I seem to recall Enoch Powell and the National Front peddling a similar line.



Aggie Powell:

quote: Hence the urgency of implementing now the second element of the Communist Party's policy: the encouragement of re-emigration.

http://www.natfront.com/powell.html

	02-08-2005 15:32									#129
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quote: The reason for unification is obvious. The only reason Ireland is divided is British meddling in Irish affairs. Meddling that has gone on for hundreds of years.

I think you'll find the meddling went both ways, it just so happens that the British nations were stronger. The Scots and other Britons migrated there centuries ago, they have as much right as the "Irish" to live there and they have a right to decide the destiny of their province.

quote: If the Protestants love Britain so much they can **** off there.

Why? They're quite happy in NI which is part of the United kingdom. I suppose you would also be urging the Irish descendants in Scotland to piss off back to Ireland aswell? As a lot of them sure dont like Britain.

quote: The worst thing that the IRA ever did was fail to assassinate Thatcher.

You seem like like such a nice guy.

	02-08-2005 15:41									#130
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quote: Umm, no they didn't. Co-existence in the same territory is not 'getting on relatively well' if it involves blatant discrimination and intimidation by one community against another.

For me, "getting on well" between the Protestant and Catholics in Northern Ireland is when they're not regularly blowing the **** out of each other.
Pre the troubles NI was a quite peaceful and crime free place in comparism to the rest of Britain.
Also you have to remember that the Unionists viewed NI as their state and Southern Ireland as the state of Catholics, thats what they viewed the partitioning as, the creation of one Catholic and one Protestant state on the Island.

	02-08-2005 16:01									#131
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quote: Originally posted by SaxonKing Pre the troubles NI was a quite peaceful and crime free place in comparism to the rest of Britain.

In lieu of teaching me about the history of Northern Ireland I would suggest you cite some statistics relating to crimes pre-1969 in the Six Counties.

You could also usefully make reference to discrimination in the workplace based on presumed ethnicity or religion, discrimination in the provision of local authority or state services, non-employment of Catholics in the police force, and gerrymandering to alter the composition of town councils.


If that's a definition of getting on or peace, then so were the Balkan Wars of the Nineties.

	02-08-2005 16:17									#132
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quote: In lieu of teaching me about the history of Northern Ireland I would suggest you cite some statistics relating to crimes pre-1969 in the Six Counties.

I'm not sure where I would get them kind of statistics from, any suggestions? I do know that NI has always had a low amount of crime, even today the crime rate is one of the lowest in Britian: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/research/esrc7.htm.

quote: You could also usefully make reference to discrimination in the workplace based on presumed ethnicity or religion, discrimination in the provision of local authority or state services, non-employment of Catholics in the police force, and gerrymandering to alter the composition of town councils.

I'm not arguing that discrimination never took place, I'm saying that calling all Unionists bigotted because of discrimination that happened decades ago is wrong. Unionists now are "bigotted" against Catholics just as Catholics are "bigotted" against Protestants because of decades of violence, not simply for religious purposes.

quote: If that's a definition of getting on or peace, then so were the Balkan Wars of the Nineties.

Its an opinion really, my definition for getting on "relatively well" in NI is, as I said, Catholics and Protestants not blowing the **** out of each other.

	02-08-2005 16:22									#133
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quote: Originally posted by SaxonKing Unionists want peace and powersharing with Catholics but they do not want to share power with terrorist and murderers which is hardly an extreme position.

Except for their own terrorists and murderrs.

	02-08-2005 16:31									#134
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quote: Originally posted by SaxonKing I dont think so, like I said I do have a good knowledge of the history of Northern Ireland and I stick by the fact that the Catholics and Protestants in NI got on relatively well prior to the troubles.

Just like what's and Blacks got along so well in the American South before the end of Jim Crow. Funny how it's always the oppressor who thinks things were so great before equality, not that de facto equality exists between Catholics and Protestants in NI anymore than defacto equality exists between whites and BLacks in the U.S.

	02-08-2005 16:45									#135
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quote: Except for their own terrorists and murderrs.

Freedom fighters to them.

quote: Just like what's and Blacks got along so well in the American South before the end of Jim Crow. Funny how it's always the oppressor who thinks things were so great before equality, not that de facto equality exists between Catholics and Protestants in NI anymore than defacto equality exists between whites and BLacks in the U.S.

And what exactly does that have to do with today? In 1969 the Unionists discrimating against the Catholics because they viewed it as a Unionist state, the Catholic one was in the South.
But what difference does that make today? Unionists hate Republicans because they killed thousands of Unionists and the Republicans hate the Unionists because the Unionists retaliated. Got nothing to do with discrimination now, Rebuplicans have exactly the same rights of Unionists, they just dont have the right to force the Protestant majority to unite with a country that they do not want to.

	02-08-2005 16:47									#136
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Catholics are still discriminated against in NI.

	02-08-2005 16:51									#137
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quote: Catholics are still discriminated against in NI.

As are Unionists, thats what happens when you have two divided communities that hate each other. And incase you haven't noticed there is no more gerrymandring in NI anymore and the Catholics are able to join the police. The Catholics have the same rights as Unionists.

	02-08-2005 16:57									#138
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If Unionists are discriminated against, they have only themselves to blame, since they hold all the power.

	02-08-2005 16:57									#139
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I'm so glad that we're all beginning to appreciate the inevitability of co-dominion.

	02-08-2005 17:00									#140
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quote: If Unionists are discriminated against, they have only themselves to blame, since they hold all the power.

What power? The devolved NI parliament no longer exists for the time being. SF has representatives in Parliament and Republicans control Republican councils. The Republicans and Protestants live in two segregated communities each hate the other.

	02-08-2005 17:05									#141
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quote: Originally posted by SaxonKing What power?

Jobs, education, police, etc.

	02-08-2005 17:11									#142
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i saw a news report on tv which said that a parliement-like thing that was established after the good friday agreement was dismantled or something. what happened?

???

	02-08-2005 17:12									#143
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Britain closed it until both sides could play nice.

	02-08-2005 17:13									#144
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quote: Jobs, education, police, etc.

Jobs, Unionists employ Unionists and Republicans employ Republicans. Education is actually fairly evenly split between the two. The Police is majority Protestant(as is the province) but thats because the Republicans wont join it, there have been many attempts to by London to encourage the Catholics but most have ultimately failed.
Anyway the RUC know that if they try to "discriminate" against the Catholics the whole neighbourhood will go up in flames.

	02-08-2005 17:14									#145
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Britain closed it until both sides could play nice.

wasnt that against the agreement? didnt anybody object?

	02-08-2005 18:03									#146
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Except for their own terrorists and murderrs.

neither of the main unionist parties have links to paramilitaries; in stark contrast to sinn fein whose leadership have actually been INVOLVED IN MURDERS. lets stop this pretence that there is a moral equivalency between sinn fein and the unionist parties.

	02-08-2005 18:11									#147
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney neither of the main unionist parties have links to paramilitaries;

Better phrased as 'admit officially to links with paramilitaries.'


On the other hand, the 'Revd.' Ian Paisley can call journalists to watch him and assorted other peace abiding citizens wave what they alleged to be gun licences in the air:

quote: Memories run deep of gun clubs being set up at the start of the Troubles by disgruntled former "B Specials" and photographs of the DUP leader, Ian Paisley, marshalling 500 gun-licence-waving supporters on the slopes of Slemish mountain in Co. Antrim.

Anne Cadwallader, Ireland on Sunday

http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/zac1a-30.htm

	02-08-2005 18:42									#148
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well there's a world of difference between been seen with people who have gun licenses, and being closely linked with terrorists, but then you know that already. that article is pretty weak tbh, although i did like this bit.

quote: There is abundant anecdotal evidence that Catholics find it more difficult to acquire licences (only one Sinn Féin member has ever been allowed one - Jim McCarry in north Antrim, whose house has been attacked on at least nine occasions).

sinn fein members not being given gun licenses!?! outrage etc.

	02-08-2005 19:11									#149
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Blair is a murderer, but I don't see anyone saying he can't be Prime Minister.

Begin, Rabin, and Sharon were all terrorists at one time.

	02-08-2005 19:15									#150
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wow that's news to me che, tell me, who did he kill?

and do you not think we've got enough threads to discuss the middle east