02-08-2005 19:37									#151
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Blair is a murderer, but I don't see anyone saying he can't be Prime Minister. Begin, Rabin, and Sharon were all terrorists at one time.

menachem begin waited 30 years from his last affiliation with a terrorist organization (without going into the details of what the Irgun did and how it compares to the IRA, a deadly threadjack) till he became PM. Same wait for Gerry Adams?

Sharon and Rabin were terrorists? Where did you get that from?

	02-08-2005 20:05									#152
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG so perhaps you propose to have a system where each of us is subject to the decision of a democratically appointed committee of apolytoners which decides on what kinds of issues we can post about?

Currently it is a non-democratic committee of one ( that one being you ) . But I'd hather have you as sole member rather than let some of the other inmates get on the committee .

	02-08-2005 20:34									#153
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actually it's a very democratic committee of two (me and dan)
decisions are taken by a president (we take weekly turns) but all actions are ratified by a bi-weekly session of the committee

	02-08-2005 22:08									#154
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reading this thread title always remindes me of the song
baby lay down your arms param param

	02-08-2005 22:49									#155
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quote: Anyway the RUC know that if they try to "discriminate" against the Catholics the whole neighbourhood will go up in flames.

Freudian slip? Or nostalgia perhaps? It's the PSNI nowadays chum.

quote: Unionists hate Republicans because they killed thousands of Unionists and the Republicans hate the Unionists because the Unionists retaliated.

The PIRA came about due to the fact that no-one was willing to defend Catholics in the North. Sadly it didn't take them long to abandon their original purpose and stoop to the level of the B specials and their ilk. It was because the Unionists persecuted Catholics and denied them civil rights that the Republicans retaliated through violence. This is what you must understand - the PIRA would never have grown if the Unionists had not laid the foundations for it. You even said the British army was sent in to protect Catholics - this was because even London realized that the Unionists were running riot up there. As to your other statements with regard to the pre-Troubles situation, it seems that we have a difference of opinion (as do many other posters) with your definition of 'relatively well'.

So Saxonking and Cockney, since you both seem to affirm the democratic process, I have one serious, final question for both of you: if, within the next 25 years say, a referendum were held in the North and it voted to rejoin the South, would you accept it?

quote: I've met Protestants who believed that Catholics in Eire and the Six Counties were dark haired because their ancestors slept with shipwrecked Spanish sailors from the Armada, and so on, ad nauseam.

Maybe an element of truth... People on Ireland's West Coast, especially around Galway, are meant to be darker - this is because Galway used to be a major trading port with Spain and well, sailors being sailors...

	02-08-2005 23:59									#156
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quote: Freudian slip? Or nostalgia perhaps? It's the PSNI nowadays chum.

So it is.

quote: The PIRA came about due to the fact that no-one was willing to defend Catholics in the North. Sadly it didn't take them long to abandon their original purpose and stoop to the level of the B specials and their ilk. It was because the Unionists persecuted Catholics and denied them civil rights that the Republicans retaliated through violence. This is what you must understand - the PIRA would never have grown if the Unionists had not laid the foundations for it. You even said the British army was sent in to protect Catholics - this was because even London realized that the Unionists were running riot up there. As to your other statements with regard to the pre-Troubles situation, it seems that we have a difference of opinion (as do many other posters) with your definition of 'relatively well'.

And unionist men wouldnt have swelled the ranks of the loyalist paramilitaries if it wasn't for IRA violence. It doesn't matter who stated it or who is responsible, what matters is the present and the future. Also the IRA in the recent years did not fight against Catholic discrimination but rather to Unite NI and EIRE against the wishes of the democratic majority. A generation of Unionists have grown up who did nothing to the Catholics, had no hand in their discrimination and see themselves as the victims, alone and betrayed. Betrayed by the London and attacked through the constant stream of money pouring into the IRA's hands from the "Irish" abroad.

quote: So Saxonking and Cockney, since you both seem to affirm the democratic process, I have one serious, final question for both of you: if, within the next 25 years say, a referendum were held in the North and it voted to rejoin the South, would you accept it?

I would not be happy about it but we must accept it, we must however seek the best deal possible for the Unionists and give them dual citizenship, we must offer the Unionists help in establishing themselves on mainland Britain if they decide to leave NI and we must be ready to defend them if the Republicans do not live up to their promises of peace.

It would be quite funny though if the Unionist para militaries started targeting the "Irish" abroad that have funded the attacks on their community for decades, true justice.

	03-08-2005 01:02									#157
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quote: It would be quite funny though if the Unionist para militaries started targeting the "Irish" abroad that have funded the attacks on their community for decades, true justice.

No, it wouldn't. I don't like the IRA or their supporters either, but to suggest you would find something like this funny betrays your true character. You're just as bad as the bigots on both sides of the divide in the North.

	03-08-2005 01:05									#158
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[q]I think you'll find they already are there. I had no idea that you were such a fan of repatriation of ethnic/religious minorities.[/quote]

I'm not. That's not what I said. If they are so desperate to be British, they can move to Britain. If not, they can live in a unified Ireland.

Enoch Powell

	03-08-2005 01:10									#159
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quote: No, it wouldn't. I don't like the IRA or their supporters either, but to suggest you would find something like this funny betrays your true character. You're just as bad as the bigots on both sides of the divide in the North.

Thats your opinion. From my point of view the bastards that funded the people that shot at me, the people that killed one of my best mates and the people that killed thousands of innocent civillians and soldiers are even worse than the terrorists themselves. They are a bunch of cowards, if they belive in the cause so much why not come over and fight for it yourself instead of funding the murder of thousands of innocents while they sit in their comfy chairs, safe from harm and far away from the consequences of their actions.
It would indeed be nice to show them what they have been funding firsthand.

	03-08-2005 01:44									#160
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Clearly what we need to do is to establish what the "save point" is for the world's borders, and return to that point. For those arguing for re-introduction of a single state covering the entire land mass of Ireland, we're cleary looking at turning back the clock by centuries.

Naturally, it would have to be universally applied across all nations. We can't be unfair about this, after all. Are we all agreed then?

Americans?

Australians?

New Zealanders?

	03-08-2005 01:57									#161
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this is something you might know laz. has ireland ever been united as one country (kingdom etc.), except under english or british rule?

i can't think of a time since we got involved there, but i don't know much about british history before the norman conquest.

	03-08-2005 02:00									#162
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quote: Naturally, it would have to be universally applied across all nations. We can't be unfair about this, after all. Are we all agreed then?

Why not? As long as there's a democratic majority that wants it. There would probably be one or two exceptions, as there are other factors that might come into play, but I say give Tibet back to the Tibetans, among many others.

I personally stated that I don't really care either way. But if in the future the majority population of NI wants to join with Ireland, I say let them. I presume from your statement that if there ever were a democratic referendum that united NI with the Republic, you'd disregard it?

	03-08-2005 02:12									#163
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quote: this is something you might know laz. has ireland ever been united as one country (kingdom etc.), except under english or british rule?

In common with most European countries during the early part of the 2nd millenium, Ireland lacked a strong central government, and I don't think you could ever consider the island 'united' in the modern sense of the world. Brian Boru was High King of Ireland however during the final Viking invasions, and he commanded as much power as his English counterpart at that time. Foreign invasions and plantations prevented Ireland from really developing a political unity.

I'm not too familiar with Irish history in the 17th century, but the island was probably united during the Confederate Ireland period, with it's capital at Kilkenny, before it was crushed by Oliver Cromwell. A large part of the country also stood behind Hugh O'Neill and Hugh O'Donnell at the beginning of that century.

	03-08-2005 02:15									#164
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a different perspective. I think its a big issue when a people that has a distinctive national identity, is denied a state (surprise!!!) While statehood is not always possible in such cases, i think the international system should lean in that direction, esp when there are real historic claims, etc, etc.

That is what is strikingly NOT the issue in Northern Ireland. On either side. The loyalists demand to remain in the UK. They dont demand it so hard that they think moving to London or Edinburgh is a real solution - yet not even the wildest irish nationalist lays claim to london, and so they would be pretty safe there. Similarly for all the longing to be part of an Irish Republic, the republicans of the North dont move en masse to Dublin, the capital of an economically thriving, democratic, Irish Republic.

The demographic issue would look a lot different if, over the decades of the 20th c , there had been mass migration from say, Scotland to Ulster. But there hasnt been. And why would there be? A UK loyal Protestant Scot, or borderer, or whatever, has no particular reason to leave island of Great Britain. Which makes one wonder why such folks need the particular land of Ulster to maintain their national identity.

Both sides have viable states - this is just a brawl over a border, over which side among the NI locals gets to stay and enjoy its national identity without moving, and which has to face the choice of living as a minority or moving. Which makes killing over it, just that much harder to fathom.

	03-08-2005 19:58									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon [q]I think you'll find they already are there. I had no idea that you were such a fan of repatriation of ethnic/religious minorities.

I'm not. That's not what I said. If they are so desperate to be British, they can move to Britain. If not, they can live in a unified Ireland.

Enoch Powell [/QUOTE]


Yes it is. They are already British, and in 'Britain' or the United Kingdom.

'Twas a Freudian slip on your part, methinks.


In any case, given that some of the Unionists have roots going back 400 years, this is ultimately as absurd as expecting all non-native peoples to leave the U.S., Australia, South Africa and South America.


Ain't gonna happen.

	04-08-2005 00:44									#166
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our man, thanks for that

what i was getting at was did they have a ruler who ruled and was recognised as the legitimate (by the pope and other rulers in the international system, such as it was) ruler of all of ireland? like the kings of england and scotland at time.

	04-08-2005 01:30									#167
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quote: what i was getting at was did they have a ruler who ruled and was recognised as the legitimate (by the pope and other rulers in the international system, such as it was) ruler of all of ireland? like the kings of england and scotland at time.

In the time of Boru, I'm not too sure. Due to geographic isolation Ireland didn't concern itself with outsiders too much, nor with the exception of the viking raids did they meddle in Irish affairs. The only reference I know of is when Maelsechlainn requested help from the Frankish emperor to defeat the Vikings. Ireland probably had insufficient contact with the outside world for any Irish noble to be recognized as head of state by a foreign power. After the expulsion of the Vikings by Boru, there was no major contact with the outside world AFAIK until the Norman invasion of 1167.

The first ruler of Ireland that was recognized internationally (or by the Pope at least) was actually Henry II. Adrian IV, the only English Pope, gave Ireland (or Hibernia) to Henry II in what one must feel was a spot of nepotism. This took place in 1155, before the Norman invasion, when there was no English presence in the country, so the claim was ludicrous; the Popes upheld it for four more centuries.

In 1570 the Archbishop of Cashel offered Philip II dominion over Ireland, but again, this is something I don't know a lot about.

During the rebellion of Hugh O'Neill and Hugh O'Donnell, there was frequent consultation with Spain, although I do not know if the Spanish king had agreed to recognize either of them as ruler of Ireland if the Battle of Kinsale had had a more positive outcome.

	05-08-2005 01:38									#168
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Hi Theben,

Yep, that might be a problem on the Republican side, but at the moment I'm waiting for the Unionist side to match the IRA, but with Ian Paisley in charge, who knows how long it will take?
As a fire-brand Preacher he might be fine, but in Irish politics I think his time is over.

I wish he'd step down and allow the people to get on with the reality, he seems to have really lost it a bit now, before, us lot in the UK merely thought him a bit nutty.

Toby

	05-08-2005 01:40									#169
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so whatever happened to David Trimble - he seemed like a pretty sane guy?

	05-08-2005 01:43									#170
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he quit after the ulster unionists becamse the smaller unionist party (behind the DUP).

edit: typing fs.

Last edited by C0ckney on 05-08-2005 at 02:16

	05-08-2005 02:02									#171
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Yep,

A real shame about David Trimble, a sensible voice who offered and gave a lot to end this problem, which (MOST) of us in the UK want no part off, as we simply don't connect with the idea that a little bit of Ireland is somehow British- It isn't to us.

I began to read the posts since my last-but-one post and quickly saw that there are a few severe Unionists on the board: How do I know without reading them all?

Because severe Unionists only ever talk of the past, never the future, like Paisley, Unlike Trimble.

Toby

	05-08-2005 03:20									#172
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No one ever answered my question. We've heard how many people died due to IRA violence. How many civilians were killed by British troops and unionist paramilitary organizations throughout "the Troubles"?

	05-08-2005 03:23									#173
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Go back to the first pages mein Doktor, you will see estimates from several media groups, all of which are problematic due to the unclearness of what counts as the beginning of 'the troubles'. CBC has said 2000.

	05-08-2005 14:40									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove No one ever answered my question. We've heard how many people died due to IRA violence. How many civilians were killed by British troops and unionist paramilitary organizations throughout "the Troubles"?

Check the Cain Project website address I posted.

	08-08-2005 02:03									#175
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Dr Strangelove,

Putting the two together is an insult to the British- The UDA etc are not the army, just terrorists, and the Army were only there as they were ordered to be so- to protect Catholics at the begining.

Toby

Last edited by Toby Rowe on 08-08-2005 at 02:13

	08-08-2005 04:17									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Dr Strangelove, Putting the two together is an insult to the British- The UDA etc are not the army, just terrorists, and the Army were only there as they were ordered to be so- to protect Catholics at the begining. Toby

There were numerous incidents where the British Army was about as protective of Irish civilians as the Uzbeck Army was of Uzbeck civilians recently. I remember those days quite vividly, they were as well broadcast as was the concurrent war in Vietnam.

	08-08-2005 07:47									#177
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The Army went to Northern Ireland to protect Catholics from Protestants, by order of the Government, end of story.

Saying "Irish" only shows your ignorance of it as it was in Northern Ireland only, where Unionists nutters decided they suddenly had a problem with the people, whatever the 300-400-500 year problem- ok, since the Dutch bloke took the British Crown in 16...whatever.

The Soldiers didn't care, we didn't care, the Conservative government seemed to. Can we all go home now please sir?

Uzbeck- Ireland, **** off and don't take the piss like that ever again. "Irish Civilians" , from where and what religion do these people have Dr Strangelove?

In Northern Ireland you belong to one of two religions, one of them wants to remain British, we simply want them to unify. Is two religions , both Christian, too hard to deal with? now in the real UK we have 7 of 8 bombers in London being "British"

The American people have now stopped funding London bombs by the IRA and Ireland might be really united, can we ALL now concentrate on the real threat the entire Western world faces? I really hate those nutters.

Toby