31-07-2005 04:07									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse you really are a fool, aren't you

Nope, that label I'll never try to pry from you.

	31-07-2005 04:17									#92
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how old are you?

	31-07-2005 04:20									#93
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That you should know. Just out of curiosity - are your personal data reliable or just random ?

	31-07-2005 04:23									#94
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yeah, I'd say you're about 12.

	31-07-2005 04:27									#95
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Well, then I'm at least 10 years older than you

	31-07-2005 04:37									#96
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yep, about 12

	31-07-2005 04:43									#97
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I'm glad that you have confirmed my assumtion.

	31-07-2005 04:44									#98
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You two appear to share a birthday, yet so much hate...

	31-07-2005 04:51									#99
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AH has about the maturity of my dad. Roughly that of a 14 year old. And yes, I know he's a father.

	31-07-2005 04:53									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthy You two appear to share a birthday, yet so much hate...

Yeah, rather weird - though, when someone calls me a fool I tend to be a little annoyed - old habits are difficult to get rid of.

	31-07-2005 05:01									#101
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I think its rather foolish to say anything is easy where the universe is concerned. We can measure but do we understand the meaning?

	31-07-2005 05:02									#102
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quote: Existence implies creation. The question of creation leads to the First Cause arguments that litter Apolyton theads.

No, existence doesn't imply creation. That's an assumption of yours. I certainly do not think so. From that, your point about logic is valid, but I disagree with the premise.

	31-07-2005 05:03									#103
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AH is Bill's father! Explore your feelings...

	31-07-2005 05:06									#104
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Son!

	31-07-2005 05:20									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think its rather foolish to say anything is easy where the universe is concerned. We can measure but do we understand the meaning?

Ah, a concrete critic of my answer, even one that I can answer - what I said was that if you have sufficient knowledge, then the problem is explainable, not nessecarily easily understood. There are a lot of current technology that most people semms as something close to magic but for those who knows about it, it's simple.

The second part is more difficult - do the universe have a meaning ? First, what claims that it is intended to have one ? Next, if we know sufficient about it (maybe not for the next 10.000 years) we may learn the answer if there are one. One thing I though think is for certain, is that none of all those religions that have ever existed in humankinds history have the right answer.

	31-07-2005 08:17									#106
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The universe exists because all possible unvierses exist.

	31-07-2005 09:57									#107
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Disagree a little - the universe is of limited size, though it is expanding. It's the nothingness surrounding it that are of unlimited size.

Shouldn't the universe be everything by definition? so nothing surrounding it?

	31-07-2005 09:58									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Odin No, the Universe IS infinite. When cosmologists talk about the size of the universe, the vast majority are refering to the OBSERVERABLE universe, the part that we can see because light has been able to reach from there. So you think the Big Bang never happened? I thought the steady staters have been extinct ever since the background microwave radiation was found.

According to some theories, (actually the main theory depending on some parameters) the WHOLE universe is finite, although without boundary.

	31-07-2005 10:00									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse there is a point where we need to accept there are things beyond our human comprehension - the universe should inspire awe and wonder, we can hardly comprehend it consider this, there are more stars than there are grains of sand on the seashore, some of the light you see when you look at the stars at night is only just reaching us from the beginning of time and is like a photograph of genesis. How can you really understand these things?

But the same logic could be applied to why planets go round, or even how the Earth was created or where lightning comes from, at some point in history, or even today in some ppl's mind.
We like to think we have a somewhat good understanding of these phenomena today, and we want to keep going on our roll!

I can appreciate what you're trying to say, but in my opinion, the search, however vain, to answer these types of questions have born much understanding, maybe about other things, ourselves whatever...

	31-07-2005 10:49									#110
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Ok everyone try this: Where is the center of the universe?

	31-07-2005 10:58									#111
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My teenage son?

	31-07-2005 11:33									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Ok everyone try this: Where is the center of the universe?

To put it in short, you are the center of the universe.

There is no real center of the universe. Space expanded, akin to the way the surface of a balloon expanded, with coins on the balloon representing objects. The distance between points increased - the actual objects didn't move. (relatively; they do move, but it's nothing compared to the expansion of space itself) Thus, from your point of view, you are the center of the universe.

	31-07-2005 11:37									#113
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quote: Existence implies creation.

If this was true, the following controdiction would occur:

Existance implies creation.
The universe exists.
The universe must have been created.
The creator exists.
The creator must have been created.

etc.

	31-07-2005 11:51									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 To put it in short, you are the center of the universe. There is no real center of the universe. Space expanded, akin to the way the surface of a balloon expanded, with coins on the balloon representing objects. The distance between points increased - the actual objects didn't move. (relatively; they do move, but it's nothing compared to the expansion of space itself) Thus, from your point of view, you are the center of the universe.

Correct!
This also explains where in the universe the big bang occurred. (Everywhere!)

	31-07-2005 13:02									#115
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I still believe that the reasoning for the universe to exist is the most simplest answer, and that's why people miss the answer so easily; because people tend to believe that something so complicated can not possibly have such a simple answer.

	31-07-2005 14:33									#116
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Is there some kind of award for stumping OT?

No you didn't

	31-07-2005 14:39									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse you really are a fool, aren't you

Horsie, you can earn yourself a vacation by insulting another person one more time.

	31-07-2005 15:32									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 Is the following statement true or false: quote: This statement is false .

According to he rules of logic , it comes under the category of a paradox , and as such has no truth value . Also , "this statement" is not defined , and thus this paradox cannot have a truth value .

	31-07-2005 18:31									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py I still believe that the reasoning for the universe to exist is the most simplest answer, and that's why people miss the answer so easily; because people tend to believe that something so complicated can not possibly have such a simple answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_maximum_boredom

Allright, it's for computers, but I've seen a link to it in a physics article there, and it does ring true with Occam's razor.

	31-07-2005 19:46									#120
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quote: Existence implies creation. The question of creation leads to the First Cause arguments that litter Apolyton theads.

Existence most certainly does not imply creation. One cannot apply the "cause is necessary to consequence" argument to a supposed necessary universe consistenting of entirely contingent objects.

I would admit that if I see another coughed-up first cause argument, I will personally die.

Bill3000's criticism is an excellent refutation of what I am also criticising.

As for a centre of the universe in a geometric sense, I am inclined to reserve judgement since if time began as an Einsteinian 4th dimension with the big bang, then logic as we perceive it also began then, since logic is predicated by cause -> consequence which is in turn dependant upon time. Time is something that we can regard as something of a tautology in argument.

quote: How can you really understand these things?

There is a fundamental difference between understanding what exists, and understanding [b]how[/i] something exists. I should be very careful about establishing limits to the achievements of science where no logical barriers exist to hold it back.