12-08-2005 09:10									#1
	Question of the Day, Turn 16 Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

There has been no word received from Civ3 Brazil. Not so much as a hello with the save. We have no idea if they intend mischief or not.

Next turn they will jump up on one of the hills and see the border. Two turns later they will be on the mountain, adjacent to a worker.

We could use the slider and use EW3 to protect the worker and deter a cheap shot. However, if they take a crack and win, Apolyton will be open before them.

We could then change to an Enk, but we would be ~5 turns and a chop into the granery and it would be a massive waste of shields.

The MoI is requesting that we change the que and build EW4 now, before the granery instead of after. A part of me agrees with him.

The downside is that we lose a couple of extra gold in maint/upkeep, and that may delay IW by a turn.

I ask you, the wise people of Apolyton, do we take our chances and possibly blow 30 or 40 shields, or do we play it safe and delay a vital tech by a turn?

I wanted to ask you, the people, before taking such a decision by myself with the help of the people in chat. This poll is unofficial, but it will guide myself as I am sure it will influence the other Consuls. It will last until there is a clear decision or 24 hours on the turn comes up.

	12-08-2005 09:16									#2
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Option 2A is leave the worker unprotected, and leave Enk3 in Apolyton.

The problem with that is that while a shot at an Enk might not be what C3B want to try... a worker lost to us and added to them is a little too tempting to a team that I assume prone to erratic action (1st game incidents, reaction to Aro's questions).

I just don't trust 'em at this point.

I am voting EW4 now.

	12-08-2005 09:21									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

ET just pointed out that the extra EW cuts down on slider use while parked in Apolyton (after they pass).

That puts IW back on track. Duh!

	12-08-2005 09:21									#4
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Change the que. If it were any other team (save PAL) I would say hold to the plan. But as it is a team that has cheated before (Confirmed and caught in the act), I say change it because I can see them cheating again to "test the waters" by just trying to attack to see if they'd win....

Oh... what NYE said.

	12-08-2005 09:38									#5
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As I haven't had a chance to FULLY look at everything, I can't say that IW won't be delayed.

And as I have a busy day in AM, I'm not going to be looking at this much more tonight (I have to get to bed and be ready for a very important Job Interview that I really want to get).

But right now, no matter what delay in our tech, I want to be very certain that they won't totally F@CK up our game. If they see more than 1 EW (one on Worker, one in Poly OR Both on Worker) they will go away.

I'm not willing to take the chance that we get taken out, this early in the game. Forget them triggering our GA ultra early, this is our survival we are talking about.

Change to EW now and delay the Granary.

MoI E_T

	12-08-2005 10:17									#6
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why the worker would be unprotected? Can't we move him 6 and improve the tile near the capitol? Or even move him to a forest and speed the granary building?

	12-08-2005 10:22									#7
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We just got the save ?
Reply with an email, and ask them whats up ?
They may be just trying to translate a response, and may be still on-line.

Get ARO to write something up quick & nice.
Just say hello, and ask them where they are going.

	12-08-2005 10:36									#8
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Yes, change build and get EW4, especially since we can always use it to reduce the lux slider while not on worker guard duty.

	12-08-2005 11:00									#9
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I want to hear a response from them first (see the proposed message in the "funny thing" thread). Perhaps hold the save for a bit until they respond.

	12-08-2005 11:06									#10
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if we move away our worker we will not need to protect it. They will see an enkidu in the capital but they can't be sure if there is second one.

I don't think they will enter our territory and start a war. All this makes me believe we should try to stick to our original plan.

Being paranoid is typical for me. But I believe this time we don't need to be that much overcautious.

	12-08-2005 11:16									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I really want that granary...
But we can delay it. I voted to change the queue. I don't want to risk ourselves.

	12-08-2005 12:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel We just got the save ? Reply with an email, and ask them whats up ? They may be just trying to translate a response, and may be still on-line. Get ARO to write something up quick & nice. Just say hello, and ask them where they are going.

I'd say have Aro write something to them (in Portuguese). That way, they can't use the language barrier as an excuse. If they don't respond to that message, then we know that they're up to their old tricks.

	12-08-2005 12:41									#13
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So, RegentMan, what exactly did they do that pisses you so much about them? This would be a great time to share your insider info.

	12-08-2005 18:11									#14
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Yep, RegentMan... I already hate those guys, but I want to know why...

	12-08-2005 21:02									#15
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The lack of response is intriguing but could be to our benefit. We could drag this out and not trade Bronze Working and roll them with swords. Although a early ancient age war is less than preferable it might be in our interest to eliminate them quickly. We would gain at least 1 extra city (their capital) since they can't raze it.

I vote to keep our plan for the granary intact. If they want to start a war by taking out a worker it will make our choices that much clearer.

	12-08-2005 21:11									#16
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I'd like to think that C3B is just being impolite by not replying to our message. If I think about it in terms of their situation, I just can't imagine that they would take a cheap shot at our worker. It's not a risk I would take - sacraficing a good relationship with a close neighbor to set us back ten shields and pop point? To me, at least, it would seem to be to their advantage to at least take a few techs before attacking.

I vote for assuming that they're just being slow to respond. It's a risk, but I don't think setting back production plans because we're kind of scared due to a lack of a message is a good idea.

	12-08-2005 21:17									#17
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I also voted to keep the granary build, i think the cost of delaying the gran outweighs the cost of possibly. maybe, losing a worker.

	12-08-2005 21:46									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Octavian X I'd like to think that C3B is just being impolite by not replying to our message. If I think about it in terms of their situation, I just can't imagine that they would take a cheap shot at our worker. It's not a risk I would take - sacraficing a good relationship with a close neighbor to set us back ten shields and pop point? To me, at least, it would seem to be to their advantage to at least take a few techs before attacking. I vote for assuming that they're just being slow to respond. It's a risk, but I don't think setting back production plans because we're kind of scared due to a lack of a message is a good idea.

Well... Many soldiers would say: lack of response deserves a "warning shot", in RL...

You know, we've sent two messages to them, one from NYE and another from MZ, if I'm not wrong.
I've read something about send another message in Portuguese, but I disagree. Next move is theirs.

	12-08-2005 21:50									#19
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Yeah, next move is theirs. They have at least one person who can speak English, right? How else would they communicate at the UN.

	12-08-2005 22:17									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep ... They have at least one person who can speak English, right? ...

I suppose so.
Anyway, they have my e-mail. They can contact me in Portuguese, if they wish.

	12-08-2005 22:20									#21
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Note: We = CFC. They = CBR.

In the early days of our encounter, they had a warrior heading towards our land, as we had one going towards their land. They complained that we were getting too close to their land, so we said we would start heading another direction, away from them. However, they were outraged that we blocked the isthmus that led into our core. They demanded that they be allowed to pass. In the end, we escorted the warrior to our borders, all the while our warrior heading somewhere else. Total arrogance on their part.

They acquired the wheel early on. We had planned to trade it with them. However, each time we would plan on a tech deal, they would reneg and change the tech plan. From the beginning, CBR said that we didn't have horses. In fact, we ended up researching the wheel by ourselves, and discovered horses in our lands (yes, they explored that part of our core)! A total lie on their part.

They wanted a DMZ. We declined. We instead proposed a fair border, giving them a bigger chunk of the land between us. After all, what's the use of a DMZ when we have a border? They rejected the generous border, saying we were being unfair. Even though we gave them more of the land between us, and they had a peninsula to the north of them that had some nice land. Who was being unfair?

I have to go now, but if you want, I'll post more. What pisses me off the most is that after all of their deception, lies, cheating, and arrogance, CDZ and CGN chose them over us to take to the finals. I am assuming that they felt CFC was a bigger threat than CBR was (and I'm sticking to it). Keep an eye out for them. Don't be naive like CFC was. Have a backbone. Piss them off. Call their arrogance. I regret that we didn't do the same.

	12-08-2005 23:12									#22
	Got spare money?

We will not take the first step in needlessly pissing another civ off, what we can do is take this knowledge as evidence of their behavior which whill make interpresting their attitude all the more easy. It will also prepare us for any decision making we might have to do. This is obviously not a civ to give second chances to and one which must de dealt with extreme suspicion, though never making it obvious to them.

Of course I've always believed in the "velvet fist" approach. We'll be nice, we'll be polite, we'll be smiling, even if we're talking crap about them to others and planning their destruction.

	12-08-2005 23:36									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That's why we love you, MZ.

RegentMan, do they have the same leadership in this game?

	13-08-2005 00:40									#24
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We can get the Enk now and the settlers and IW on time or within a turn of krill's plan.

I would prefer the extra Enk now, and a settler ready the same turn we get IW.

I've just simmed it out, and with some attention paid to commerce we can have that settler and IW on the same turn as IW for krill.

	13-08-2005 01:05									#25
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quote: Originally posted by ormuzd if we move away our worker we will not need to protect it. They will see an enkidu in the capital but they can't be sure if there is second one. I don't think they will enter our territory and start a war. All this makes me believe we should try to stick to our original plan. Being paranoid is typical for me. But I believe this time we don't need to be that much overcautious.

Unfortunately, moving the worker blows the plan. The plan counts on that bonus grass being mined in time to be used by the growing population (the 4th pop).

Woops. That's not true necessarily. I'll look further.

	13-08-2005 01:21									#26
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Yes, moving the worker does effect the plan.

quote: T22, 2950: Granary complete, build Enk4, W1 frozen T23, 2900: Pop5, Enk4 complete, build settler, WF W1 moves 6, mines. W2 frozen, road complete, Enk4 forts, Slider 1.7.2 WF 2,4,5,6,11

The mine on Poly WF 17 is needed there on turn 22 so that the new pop produces two shields to complete the Enk on turn 23.

	13-08-2005 02:29									#27
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We have ~5 hours left. This poll is far from clear (8 say change, 7 say don't).

I intend to play the turn in 4 hours from this post. Speak your mind here, or join us in chat if you wish.

irc.civirc.com
#ApolytonC3CISDG temp

	13-08-2005 03:41									#28
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dam not easy

still calculating the production and the building ...hmm

if we build now a enk did the worker realy need to get the forest scrapped?

dam it hard descision.

or did we take the option than to build a settler with 31/30 at the turn the city grow to pop5?

edit: with wood cutting we have than no 30/30 option

Last edited by sirleif on 13-08-2005 at 03:54

	13-08-2005 03:49									#29
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enk4 -> yes


and yes @wood cutting -> we need the granary 66/60 @pop5 15/20 food stored is ok

	13-08-2005 05:02									#30
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I had taken around 1/2 hour, composing a long reply, after RegentMan's post, but unfortunately, I had lost my connection, right when I was making the post and lost everything in it.

Grrrr...

* E_T curses the people who wired the phonelines in his house, with leftover main electrical wiring

Anyways, nye hit several of the points that I was going to address.

I'll add more shortly.

E_T