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Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 14:47
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Insurgents in control Increase the size of your Attachments

Under US noses, brutal insurgents rule Sunni citadel

It's a Guardian article, so you can take it or leave it.

quote:
A three-day visit by a reporter working for the Guardian last week established what neither the Iraqi government nor the US military has admitted: Haditha, a farming town of 90,000 people by the Euphrates river, is an insurgent citadel.

That Islamist guerrillas were active in the area was no secret but only now has the extent of their control been revealed. They are the sole authority, running the town's security, administration and communications.

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 14:51
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And america's answer? well it will no doubt be to bomb the hell out of it, women+children and all - making the whole process bog down and last for our life times

Well if the story is really true

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 15:01
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I feel sorry for the Americans, actually. They never stood a chance of pulling this off.

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
I feel sorry for the Americans, actually. They never stood a chance of pulling this off.


Me too. Because of the idiotic actions of the people in my sig(as a very large part of the reason it happened), decent Amercians(of which there are many from my experience) will now have to live with the very real damage to thier international reputation. And it wont become fixed anytime soon i expect - the damage is too great. Hopefully the majority can learn from this mistake.

As for britain, i think most outside observers can see we were dragged mostly unwilling into this mess - our gloriuos PM being won over(bribed?) to the neo-con cause i suspect, still he's lost alot of friends due to this action alone(i helped vote him in previously to Iraq). And there is no way in hell we'll follow america into another such situation anytime soon i suspect.

Poor America - they really messed up

Barinthus is offline Barinthus
King
A Magical Moment...
Jan 2004
time: 21:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 18:59
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There was an article in washingtonpost.com yesterday about how Kurds and Shiite political parties control the police therefore everything else. So the central government is very weak here and Americans look really bad.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 19:06
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haditha - that makes sense. The insurgents are growing weaker in Mosul, and in Ramadi, but their last bastion is the upper Euphrates section of Anbar province, close to the Syrian border. We dont have enough troops in Iraq to maintain control of Anbar, until more Iraqi forces are trained and equipped, and it would be a mistake to rush that. Ergo its best not to panic when some small town in upper Anbar is under insurgent control.

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 19:24
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Some people just take way too much joy out of any negative thing.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 19:26
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who's taking joy?

i expected better from you rah

I didn't take you for one of those "libruls enjoy americans dying" guys

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 19:35
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If you think some people aren't feeling better about themselves, (since they're not americans) over any american failure, you're being naive. And yes, I think some of them don't care about the lives lost as long as they can feel superior.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 19:40 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Do you think Shrub didn't feel joy over his invasion of Iraq, regardless of all the little people who were going to be killed? Not that I think we should set our standards of what is acceptable by that man.

It's only natural that the rest of the peoples of the world feel joy at an American defeat. Not merely because we are the top dog, which means everyone wants to see us taken down a peg or two, but also because it is in their best interests that the hegemon be defeated. All other countries will be freer to act when Rome is afraid to use its power.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
Thumbs up  Old Post 22-08-2005 19:43 Visit DanS's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by child of Thor
And america's answer? well it will no doubt be to bomb the hell out of it, women+children and all


Hell, yes! Let's have some fried Iraqi for breakfast. The women and children are especially tender.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by rah
If you think some people aren't feeling better about themselves, (since they're not americans) over any american failure, you're being naive. And yes, I think some of them don't care about the lives lost as long as they can feel superior.
it seems to me that if you have to worry about what other people are thinking/feeling, you are at a loss for arguments supporting your POV

rah is offline rah
Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 19:47
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I still feel sad when I see replays of the clips of people celebrating 9/11. It makes me feel a little less compasionate. That is also sad.

I agree that people will always like it when the big dog gets taken down a notch. But some the things they take joy in, makes them even worse than how they perceive the top dog.

I know it's not everyone, but there are enough for it to be disturbing.

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Do you think Shrub didn't feel joy over his invasion of Iraq, regardless of all the little people who were going to be killed? Not that I think we should set our standards of what is acceptable by that man.

It's only natural that the rest of the peoples of the world feel joy at an American defeat. Not merely because we are the top dog, which means everyone wants to see us taken down a peg or two, but also because it is in their best interests that the hegemon be defeated. All other countries will be freer to act when Rome is afraid to use its power.


What are you saying? America in Iraq = Persia at Thermophylae?

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS


Hell, yes! Let's have some fried Iraqi for breakfast. The women and children are especially tender.


I wonder if our views would be any different if it was us over in Iraq doing the dirty work ( but i know you were just being naughty.) - what you say DanS, lets sign up for a tour?

And for the record i take no delight what so ever in any innocent people dying(including us soldiers) - its the people who decided this was going to happen who should be taking the bullets+bombs imho. I think they have failed spectacularly in their dirty little plan to con the world that this war was something it wasn't

Poor America, poor Iraq, and shamefull UK

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by child of Thor
what you say DanS, lets sign up for a tour?
no way, republicans like dans (more specifically known as chicken-hawks) want others to fight their wars

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 20:37
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This is what you get when you don't have a clue about what the final aims are supposed to be, and your tactics simply are unable to match your rhetoric.

Our problem in Iraq is simple, removing Saddam form power is a simple aim that American military power could achieve, period. Creating a stable, democratic Iraq is a goal that only Iraqis themselves could achieve. We could create a stable Iraq with highly undemocratic means, but we won't. So in the end our stated policy goal is one in which American military power can play at best only a supporting bit. We are at the mercy of the Iraqis themselves, and sadly it is not clear that Liberal democracy and the territorial integrity of Iraq is what a majority of Iraqis want.

child of Thor is offline child of Thor
Emperor
UK
Jan 2002
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
no way, republicans like dans (more specifically known as chicken-hawks) want others to fight their wars


I'd admire his grasp of economics, with him in the same unit as me i doubt i would ever run short of ammo

@Gepap, i've been thinking that maybe Iraq could work like Northern Ireland did for the uk military. The US has the most powerfull military in the world, but doesn't have much 'real world' experience - not over extended periods of time. So maybe 'behind the scenes' is a push for the US to make the middle east its training ground?(with added benefits eg oil)

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
Prince
Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:02
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well the 'oil' part of the 'plan' is certainly going well, what with petrol fast approaching £1/litre over here

Last edited by C0ckney on 22-08-2005 at 21:13

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
well the 'oil' part of the 'plan' is certainly going well, what with petrol fast approaching £1/litre over here


Who said you where part of the plan?

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by child of Thor


I'd admire his grasp of economics, with him in the same unit as me i doubt i would ever run short of ammo



Only you'd end up with so much ammo that there wouldn't be any left for the other units.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:34
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quote:
Originally posted by C0ckney
well the 'oil' part of the 'plan' is certainly going well, what with petrol fast approaching £1/litre over here
that is part of the plan...

let oil prices rise..

btw have you checked how oil companies' profits are doing this year?

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:37
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This is so great. Not only is Shrub being humiliated, but, given their incessant warmongering, all the right wing nuts on Apolyton are too!!!!

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:44
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Eh, I'm just hoping for the demise of Liberal IR now that we see where it leads.

* DinoDoc looks at Imran

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:46
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questions now

1. How real is the evidence of a civil war among the Iraqi sunnis? IE sunnis fighting against the Zarqawi terrorists? WaPo had an article this Saturday, indicating the Zarqies are killing Sunni Arab leaders who are calling for Sunni participation in future elections, in both Mosul and Ramadi, and at least in Ramadi the Sunnis are fighting back.

2. What will the proposed constitution look like? It appears theyve compromised the Islam issue, and real question is federalism. The Shiites and Kurds seem to have agreed on a federalism-lite constitution, but have not received signoff from Sunni arab parties. They appear likely to pass it in anyway, apparently in the hope that its relatively moderate terms will attract Sunni support.

3. What will the constitutional referendum look like - the Sunni arab parties are strongly pushing for Sunni arabs to participate, which is good thing (though AQ will still try to keep turnout down) OTOH that doesnt mean theyll support the draft constitution, and if majorities in 3 provinces oppose it, that means new elections and back to the drawing board.

3A. Note well - given poor Sunni turnout in the January elections, the Sunnis have plenty of incentives to want NEW elections, in which they are likely to do MUCH better. There relatively hardline stance on federalism probably owes much to this tactical consideration

3b - theres a lot to be said for new elections, which would likely weaken the Shiite Islamist parties (SCIRI and Dawa) both because of increased Sunni turnout, and disillusionment with their performance in office.

4. How long can the US military stay there, in what numbers? The Army says they can keep 100,000 troops there for 4 years, and this would seem consistent with the expansion of the army to 43 brigades. Others point to problems especially with NG recruitment.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:53
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Wake up and smell the coffee LoTM. You're losing, and it's a good thing. The absolute best thing that could happen for world peace is for the neocon idiots to be completely discredited. They are a menace to humanity, and if they succeed we will be essentially back in 1914, and only an idiot would want that.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 21:55
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you know, i generally would like US efforts in iraq to succeed...

but agathon makes a good point

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 22:00
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Do you think Shrub didn't feel joy over his invasion of Iraq, regardless of all the little people who were going to be killed? Not that I think we should set our standards of what is acceptable by that man.

It's only natural that the rest of the peoples of the world feel joy at an American defeat. Not merely because we are the top dog, which means everyone wants to see us taken down a peg or two, but also because it is in their best interests that the hegemon be defeated. All other countries will be freer to act when Rome is afraid to use its power.


Not really. Most of the rest of the world is committed to the ideal of the UN: a world of international law. Of course, this is still largely an ideal, and the UN is a "profoundly cynical organization", but it's the only real alternative we have to the system alliance blocs that caused so much trouble before. If there's any joy, it's joy at the fact that an American defeat will put an end to this stupid pre-emptive, coalitions of the "willing" crap.

If you want a third world war, vote for Bush, because that is where his idiotic policies are leading us. The sad thing is that his father was one of the finest examples of people who understood what the UN was for and what its limits were.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
you know, i generally would like US efforts in iraq to succeed...


As would I, if it could be done at no expense to the fragile international system of law. But right now it can't.

No-one likes the Saddams and Kim Jong Ils of this world, but we simply do not have the ability to do anything about it without consensus of the great powers that won't throw us back into the jungle.

Fascist dictators are treated like everyone else at the UN for a good reason: we don't have the resources or the realistic prospect of fighting them all and defeating them, and it is better to have them there than not.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 22-08-2005 22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
This is what you get when you don't have a clue about what the final aims are supposed to be, and your tactics simply are unable to match your rhetoric.

Our problem in Iraq is simple, removing Saddam form power is a simple aim that American military power could achieve, period. Creating a stable, democratic Iraq is a goal that only Iraqis themselves could achieve. We could create a stable Iraq with highly undemocratic means, but we won't. So in the end our stated policy goal is one in which American military power can play at best only a supporting bit. We are at the mercy of the Iraqis themselves, and sadly it is not clear that Liberal democracy and the territorial integrity of Iraq is what a majority of Iraqis want.


Well said....

 
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