23-08-2005 12:59									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Must have been during the Battle of the Norhern Arabian Gulf when The Iraqi War Fleet did battle with us.

almost no sailors have died in warfare in the past 20 years. Most of them have been pilots shot down over enemy territory.

then you have the USS Cole. And then a small boat was blown up by an oil platform on the Iraq coast. A couple of sailors died from that.

	23-08-2005 13:05									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Alot of good points in here by Shawn, Geronimo, and Jon Miller. I liked Jon's example. In Civ games, if you aren't the aggressor, you only build large armies for defense, to counter another large army. There is no other large army anymore. That many carriers is a waste of money in today's world. No offense to guys like Lonestar who are out doing their jobs. But our large military needs to be restructured. Scaling back the carrier fleet by a couple of carriers is a good step. There's not only the capital expenditure, but the maintenance costs are unbelievable.

It would make sense to scale back the carriers. But I'm against that until the U.S. scales back waging wars. The carrier force is stretched too thin as it is. We can barely maintain continuous presence in the persian (arabian) gulf.

First we must pursue a course of peace, instead of continuously waging war. And then we can think of scrapping the carriers.

	23-08-2005 13:30									#63
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That's very impressive but consider this - when Britain built the first dreadnought at a stroke it made every battleship in the world obsolete, including its own.

	23-08-2005 13:32									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Dis It would make sense to scale back the carriers. But I'm against that until the U.S. scales back waging wars.

There is a pretty strong relationship between you ability to wage war (your weaponry), you you actually doing so.
The only situation where a huge arsenal wasn't used was during the cold war, because the Russians were as strong as you (latin American countries didn't have this luck).
In the current situation, your huge arsenal is used in wars that you initiate, simply because you can. If you only keep a serious defensive force, you'll continue to be at peace. But indeed, you'll stop being an empire.

	23-08-2005 13:57									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor There is a pretty strong relationship between you ability to wage war (your weaponry), you you actually doing so. The only situation where a huge arsenal wasn't used was during the cold war, because the Russians were as strong as you (latin American countries didn't have this luck). In the current situation, your huge arsenal is used in wars that you initiate, simply because you can. If you only keep a serious defensive force, you'll continue to be at peace. But indeed, you'll stop being an empire.

ceasing to be an 'empire' doesn't mean we couldn't become fabulously wealthy and decadent so who cares? In fact an argument could be made that we are likely to become even more fabulously wealthy and decadent after voluntarily abandoning the 'empire'

	23-08-2005 14:00									#66
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"America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between."
- Oscar Wilde

	23-08-2005 14:04									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo ceasing to be an 'empire' doesn't mean we couldn't become fabulously wealthy and decadent so who cares? In fact an argument could be made that we are likely to become even more fabulously wealthy and decadent after voluntarily abandoning the 'empire'

I think this is what would hapen too (except for the decadent part - as I think the "decadence" would prove very beneficial to your society).

Some extent of power-projection will be useful for you, as you'll still want to bomb the occasional brown people. But your current capabilities are completely absurd, and they only serve to launch full wars of agression.

	23-08-2005 14:05									#68
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Or saving the world.

	23-08-2005 14:05									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think this is what would hapen too (except for the decadent part - as I think the "decadence" would prove very beneficial to your society). Some extent of power-projection will be useful for you, as you'll still want to bomb the occasional brown people. But your current capabilities are completely absurd, and they only serve to launch full wars of agression.

you don't think our society is decadent?

	23-08-2005 14:07									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Az Or saving the world.

from whom ?

and who wants to be saved ?

	23-08-2005 14:19									#71
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quote: originally posted by Danubis quote: originally posted by Az Or saving the world. from whom ? and who wants to be saved ?

While the "from whom" is certainly valid, I would say:

"saving" ???

	23-08-2005 14:24									#72
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we are saving them from themselves.

	23-08-2005 14:26									#73
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quote: when Britain built the first dreadnought at a stroke it made every battleship in the world obsolete, including its own.

QFT

And when someone built the first reliable (to exclude V-1) and guided winged missile it made carriers and other over (as opposed to sub) sea faring vessels obsolete.

No carrier can withstand a high speed guided missile.

I mean, there are counter measures of course, but apart from destroying the missile before launch (which is highly unlikely if misile is launched from a hidden pad somewhere on land), they all are prety ineffective.

The cost ratios of a missile or two against the battleship are just too explaining.

quote: Or saving the world.

The only thing they need to save is their own ass as they've done so much sh^t in the last 50 yrs or more that if suddenly they lost their force, some half of the world would just start ignoring them (at least) and half of the remaining half would come for a revenge.

	23-08-2005 14:34									#74
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have you ever heard of the AEGIS system?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...stems/aegis.htm

and if that fails, cruisers and destroyers are designed to "take the hits". They are expendable. Sorry lonestar.

	23-08-2005 14:36									#75
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quote: have you ever heard of the AEGIS system?

And?

Do you think it would work at at least 90% efficency in battle conditions?

	23-08-2005 14:40									#76
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yes

there is the possibility the military is lieing about the effectiveness of it. Only one way to find out.

quote: The AEGIS weapon system is the most capable surface launched missile system the Navy has ever put to sea. It can defeat an extremely wide range of targets from wave top to directly overhead. AEGIS is extremely capable against anti-ship cruise missiles and manned aircraft flying in all speed ranges from subsonic to supersonic. The AEGIS system is effective in all environmental conditions having both all-weather capability and demonstrated outstanding abilities in chaff and jamming environments. AEGIS brings a revolutionary, multi-mission combat capability to the US Navy. AEGIS equipped ships are capable of engaging and defeating enemy aircraft, missiles, submarines and surface ships.

	23-08-2005 14:41									#77
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How good there are no wars..

	23-08-2005 15:08									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Dis you don't think our society is decadent?

Depends. Here's what I consider "decadent" in your society:
- your militarism
- your large swathes of holier-than-thou "family values" people
- your constant striving for an enemy
- your absurd paranoia when it comes to domestic safety (war on drugs)
- your terrible lack of public help toward the poor and the destitute

But I think it's not the meaning we often attribute to "decadence" I would suspect that most people who yell that America is decadent (be they Phelps or Bin Laden) hate the idea of a country where gay people can live a fulfilling lovelife, where the law of the jungle is tamed, where problems are solved with thought intead of the immediate use of force.

That's the kind of decadence I wish for you Yanks. And I think that dropping the militarism and the constant striving for an enemy will help you achieve it.

	23-08-2005 15:10									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker These would by flying cars?

You know Kuci, you are boring beyond belief. Pedantic without humour. I was referring to their appearance rather than what land on them. Get a life

	23-08-2005 15:23									#80
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Submarines are the true measure of military power at sea amongst the great powers today

but the aircraft carrier is still the most powerful force projection and foreign policy tool

	23-08-2005 16:17									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Dis *cough*recent (2001) war in Afghanistan*cough*

Wasn't most of the bombing done with those B2's, from... Diego Carcia or something?

Or...


BBC: USS Britain Commissioned

	23-08-2005 16:43									#82
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Saras - could you please post a link on that. I had never considered that comparison, and I assume you have done some of the original research.

binTravkin - Hi, guy. My meds are working mostly, as you can see from my very sporadic posting. I've had a series of good days, but I'm feeling pretty dead again this morning. When I can become reliable again I'll resume PBEM. I wanted to see how the thread went, otherwise I'd be in bed.

You make a very good point about the Soviet mach speed guided missles. Very scary, and nobody has ever tested current ship defense systems against them. Add some world class electronics, either via a Western European partner or even the Chinese, and they will end up being DEADLY. The US navy was very concerned in the 1980's, read Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy about possible outcomes.

The Chinese did that with their improvements on the Styx series to the Silkworms, which are not a weapon to be dismissed lightly. True, they can be intercepted, but if even one gets through a modern Supercarrier is probably the only ship that would survive the first hit.

AH - very succinct one line summary (something I'm not that good at ).

quote: Submarines are the true measure of military power at sea amongst the great powers today but the aircraft carrier is still the most powerful force projection and foreign policy tool

ALOT of people forget that, at their own and their country's risk.

Of course China is going to build them. Just like the Cold War USA, they want to project power to protect resources and further political aims. They are definitely playing the Great Game of today's world, and later on in this century it may be the EU versus China, if the US doesn't get it's economic house in order. As I keep reminding people, Argentina was the 8th largest economy in the world about a century ago. Mismanagement can wreck a modern economy.

	23-08-2005 16:45									#83
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quote: but the aircraft carrier is still the most powerful force projection and foreign policy tool

There was a saying that if a person holds a baseball bat, he looks more dangerous than while yielding a gun..

	23-08-2005 16:45									#84
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis from whom ? and who wants to be saved ?

From religious dogma, from example. ( and america better start with itself )

And you don't have to want to be saved to deserve to be saved. If one was in a closed box, living a life of relative misery, but had no knowledge of the outside world, and didn't want to be saved, because he didn't know such a possibility existed, do you think that that person should've been left in the box?

	23-08-2005 16:47									#85
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Thailand?!? Freaking Thailand?

	23-08-2005 16:51									#86
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quote: there is the possibility the military is lieing about the effectiveness of it. Only one way to find out. quote: The AEGIS weapon system is the most capable surface launched missile system the Navy has ever put to sea. It can defeat an extremely wide range of targets from wave top to directly overhead. AEGIS is extremely capable against anti-ship cruise missiles and manned aircraft flying in all speed ranges from subsonic to supersonic. The AEGIS system is effective in all environmental conditions having both all-weather capability and demonstrated outstanding abilities in chaff and jamming environments. AEGIS brings a revolutionary, multi-mission combat capability to the US Navy. AEGIS equipped ships are capable of engaging and defeating enemy aircraft, missiles, submarines and surface ships.

quote: You make a very good point about the Soviet mach speed guided missles. Very scary, and nobody has ever tested current ship defense systems against them. Add some world class electronics, either via a Western European partner or even the Chinese, and they will end up being DEADLY. The US navy was very concerned in the 1980's, read Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy about possible outcomes. The Chinese did that with their improvements on the Styx series to the Silkworms, which are not a weapon to be dismissed lightly. True, they can be intercepted, but if even one gets through a modern Supercarrier is probably the only ship that would survive the first hit.

Thanks for the helping hand, Shawnmmcc, was lazy to search for those myself..

And Dis, you might some day discover that your and any other country's government is broadcasting more lies than you ever thought.
Especially about it's military power.

You can have a good similarity in little boys' boasting who has the richest father, strongest brother etc.

	23-08-2005 22:14									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Dis not likely. India wasn't too impressive in their war with China in 62.

India probably can't get too frisky with anyone else as long as they have Pakistan as a potential hostile. If India ever got embroiled with China for instance, Pakistan might see that as an opportunity to make a move.

	23-08-2005 22:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin There was a saying that if a person holds a baseball bat, he looks more dangerous than while yielding a gun..

Well, that is quite an apt comparision in a place where people would be quite reluctant to use a gun. Subs generally only carry with them the threat of certain nuclear annihilation.

	23-08-2005 22:23									#89
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin

Thanks for the helping hand, Shawnmmcc, was lazy to search for those myself..

And Dis, you might some day discover that your and any other country's government is broadcasting more lies than you ever thought.
Especially about it's military power.

You can have a good similarity in little boys' boasting who has the richest father, strongest brother etc. [/QUOTE]

But here the boast can be useful if enough possible enemies believe it. Its like the "tough kid" at school that never has to fight because everyone "knows" he is toughest. That only works as long as people believe the story.

	23-08-2005 22:25									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Az No, no, of course not. But this is the paradox: If there is such a force, it is threatening to US NAVY carriers. If there is no such force, these carriers aren't really needed.

I can't really argue that the US NEEDS as many carriers as it has. But if they wish to continue to have the ability to project force anywhere in the world without the necessity of land bases, carriers do provide this ability.