26-08-2005 03:33									#151
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You frog, you think you're culture has had so much influence on ours. But au contraire, you are wrong

	26-08-2005 03:40									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison You frog, you think you're culture has had so much influence on ours. But au contraire, you are wrong

How do they say? Honni soit qui mal y pense? It's somewhat of a déjà vu...

	26-08-2005 03:58									#153
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You're just too avant garde I'm afraid

	26-08-2005 16:30									#154
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Laz, of those only Trollope was new to the thread. And why anyone would want to mention Stevenson twice is beyond me.

	26-08-2005 16:46									#155
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William Topaz McGonagall

The worst poet in history

	26-08-2005 16:48									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison You frog, you think you're culture has had so much influence on ours. But au contraire, you are wrong

Culture hasn't had any influence on you PH?

	26-08-2005 16:54									#157
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Culture hasn't had any influence on you PH?

*whoosh*

	26-08-2005 16:56									#158
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Let's get technical:

Charles Darwin: The Voyage of the Beagle and On The Origin Of Species

Or religio-philosophical & wigged out:

William Blake- Milton

Or druggy: Thomas De Quincey- Confessions of An Opium Eater

Utilitarian: J. S. Mill 'On Liberty'

Economic: David Ricardo- On the Principles of Political Economy and Taxation

Feminist, political: Christina Rossetti- 'Goblin Market'

Artly critical: John Ruskin- The Seven Lamps Of Architecture

Craftily Socialist: William Morris: News From Nowhere

Angularly Jesuitically Saxon: Gerard Manley Hopkins- The Windhover

Fishily poetical: George Crabbe- (The Borough)- Peter Grimes

Grubbing around: George Gissing: New Grub Street

Prime Ministerial: Benjamin Disraeli- Sybil

Grouchily Marxist: Eleanor Marx- The Factory Hell

Oscar Wilde counts, naturally, since although being born in Dublin he wrote in English and was a citizen of the British Empire.

	26-08-2005 16:58									#159
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How about Karl Marx? Didn't he write a bunch of stuff during his British period?

	26-08-2005 16:59									#160
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Yeah.

	26-08-2005 17:19									#161
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Henry Mayhew: London Labour and London Poor

George Meredith: The Egoist

Samuel Butler: The Way Of All Flesh & Erewhon

George Borrow: Lavengro & The Romany Rye

	26-08-2005 18:12									#162
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Let's get technical: Charles Darwin: The Voyage of the Beagle and On The Origin Of Species Or religio-philosophical & wigged out: William Blake- Milton Or druggy: Thomas De Quincey- Confessions of An Opium Eater Utilitarian: J. S. Mill 'On Liberty' Economic: David Ricardo- On the Principles of Political Economy and Taxation Feminist, political: Christina Rossetti- 'Goblin Market' Artly critical: John Ruskin- The Seven Lamps Of Architecture Craftily Socialist: William Morris: News From Nowhere Angularly Jesuitically Saxon: Gerard Manley Hopkins- The Windhover Fishily poetical: George Crabbe- (The Borough)- Peter Grimes Grubbing around: George Gissing: New Grub Street Prime Ministerial: Benjamin Disraeli- Sybil Grouchily Marxist: Eleanor Marx- The Factory Hell Oscar Wilde counts, naturally, since although being born in Dublin he wrote in English and was a citizen of the British Empire.

Check the first post - non-fiction essays count ONLY if they are primarily known for their literary style. I think that would exclude Darwin, Mill and Ricardo. Ruskin probably borderline.

	27-08-2005 02:10									#163
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo If we look only at the novelists, France is a clear winner, IMO. But if we look at the poets, I'm not sure. There sure are heavyweights on both sides... But nobody cares about poetry anyway. So even if British poetry wins, and if they do they don't pwn France, not with Rimbaud on their team, France wins the day. QED

France has a few individually strong novelists, but England has a whole bunch of one hit wonders, and prolific if more middlebrow novelists, etc. I think one could make a case for France having a slight edge, for a draw, or for the Brits having a slight edge. It would be pretty subjective to pick one of those positions.

As for poetry, its harder to judge, since you really need to read it in the original, and most of the "brit" side here isnt bilingual (and Im not - i can make out the literal meanings of most of the French poems, but I cant really judge their style) But I think theres a general consensus the Brits have the edge.


So Id say the brits win, but the dont "pwn".

So while they win the battle they lose the war - you cant make a case from this that French in the 19th century was losing its influence due to British lit. OTOH we've deliberately excluded the United States, and bringing in Whitman, Melville, the US transcendentalists, Hawthorne, Twain, Poe, James, would make a big difference.

Of course, as your poetry comment points out, maybe belle lettres is the wrong place to look for influence? Maybe we should be looking at non-fiction?

Another area I like to explore would be the US vs rest of world for fiction in the 1920's and 1930's. I think we could begin to make a case for the US rise to cultural dominance antedating the Second World War.

And Id like to look at high culture generally, from 1945-1960, to show that US post war dominance isnt all popcult.

	27-08-2005 02:31									#164
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Another area I like to explore would be the US vs rest of world for fiction in the 1920's and 1930's. I think we could begin to make a case for the US rise to cultural dominance antedating the Second World War.

That's P.G. Wodehouse era, and surely not much beats him for laughs or influence. The most prolific funny writer in English until Pratchett himself.

If the US was generally dominant at that time, it might be because Hollywood bought up talent from everywhere and stopped them from writing their own stuff.

	27-08-2005 03:44									#165
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Pratchett?

That's stories, not literature - just like Walter Scott.

I studied Ruskin as part of my English Literature course - although it wasn't really literature either, but his ideas were phenomenally influential for the rest of the century, and thereafter, certainly until Marx.

	27-08-2005 03:48									#166
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quote: That's stories, not literature - just like Walter Scott.

Pratchett's not just about stories for goodness sake. How can you be saying this?

	27-08-2005 03:51									#167
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and since when was Walter Scott funny?

	27-08-2005 03:52									#168
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We'll be told the The Simpsons isn't at the pinnacle of High Art next!

	27-08-2005 03:54									#169
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Sorry, but do you really think that future students of literature will be studying Pratchett over, say Rushdie, in 200 years time? Maybe only as part of a trash lit module alongside Harry Potter and Zadie Smith, but not alongside Atwood and Ghosh.

	27-08-2005 04:04									#170
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Both Ozymandias and El Desdichado quoted entirely here. I would have some taste then?

There are a few French authors I didn't see quoted who are worth mentioning:
Barbey d'Aurevilly (Les Diaboliques)
Marceline Desbordes-Valmore (several poems)
George Sand (a woman, as the name doesn't imply) her letter to Musset being particularly renowned. His answer, and then hers being nice too, but not as elaborate.
I saw Rimbaud was named, but was Verlaine?

	27-08-2005 04:17									#171
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Sorry, but do you really think that future students of literature will be studying Pratchett over, say Rushdie, in 200 years time? Maybe only as part of a trash lit module alongside Harry Potter and Zadie Smith, but not alongside Atwood and Ghosh.

Possibly not, but only because the Literary Establishment has no sense of humour. In 200 years time there'll be as much to learn about us from Pratchett as from Rushdie, except that the former will make the students laugh more.

Pratchett isn't trash, it's satire-fantasy for adults, whereas Potter is a kids story read by adults. Is CS Lewis trash?

Have you read the recent stuff like Thief of Time & Night Watch?

	27-08-2005 04:44									#172
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Wile it isn't trash, it isn't literature either, Cort. And I'm the biggest Potter fan around here. There is a difference between literature and just fiction.

	27-08-2005 07:28									#173
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Yes, CS Lewis is trash. It's only interesting for the heavy Christian overtones, which were a major feature of his work, and the way in which this can be considered within the children's literature of the time. Would you consider Enid Blyton and Beatrix Potter as worthy of study as Dickens? Well they all have their own sides to each story - particularly Blyton, with her exceptionally strong female characters.

	27-08-2005 12:53									#174
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york And why anyone would want to mention Stevenson twice is beyond me.

Because when it came to plot-driven novels, he was the master. His characters will still resond long after other works are forgotten, and his psychological dramas such as "Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde" were ground-breaking.

	27-08-2005 12:56									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You believe you can impress La France Eternelle with your amusing three-hit combo? Just to entertain you by responding to your little jabs, here's Théophile Gautier, Lamartine and de Vigny!

Who? Who? And, moreover, who?

	27-08-2005 13:23									#176
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quote: Yes, CS Lewis is trash. It's only interesting for the heavy Christian overtones, which were a major feature of his work, and the way in which this can be considered within the children's literature of the time.

CS Lewis will be better remembered for his contributions to literature than Margaret Atwood. People talk about Atwood, but they read CS Lewis.

	27-08-2005 13:25									#177
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Oh, and kudos to molly for William Blake. What an oversight.

	27-08-2005 14:07									#178
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The Oxford Dictionary defines Literature as

"written works, esp those whose value lies in the beauty of language or in emotional effects"

Genuinely comic writers like Wodehouse, D. Adams and Pratchett not only succeed in both of these departments but excel and surpass because they play with language and metaphor to produce sheer joy - at least to people with a sense of humour. Even philosophically they outstrip turgid and depressive hacks like Hardy, whose dour ramblings inspire about as much as a wet thursday night in Grimsby.

Comparing Pratchett to first Walter Scott, then Potter, then Noddy goes to Toytown and Jemimah bloody Puddleduck could only be done by someone who hasn't got the joke.

Of course, to the self-proclaimed guardians of High Art, anything the grubby oiks enjoy reading cannot possibly be considered literature.

	27-08-2005 14:47									#179
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Check the first post - non-fiction essays count ONLY if they are primarily known for their literary style. I think that would exclude Darwin, Mill and Ricardo. Ruskin probably borderline.

Both Darwin and Ruskin are used as illustrative examples of evolving Victorian prose styles in the teaching of 19th Century English literature at university level.

That the importance of Darwin and Mill's ideas in the wider world outside English literature outstrip the fame of their styles of writing is hardly surprising.

Ruskin's style is justly famed:

quote: ...and wrote some of the most superb prose in the English language.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ru/Ruskin-J.html


In any case, their places could be (spookily) taken by

J Sheridan Le Fanu

Arthur Machen

and M. R. James

with Hazlitt and Olive Schreiner and William Cobbett lurking in the background too.

	27-08-2005 17:00									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Who? Who? And, moreover, who?

Was that an argument? I mean, who would emphasize on his ignorance in order to prove his cultural superiority?

Oh, that's right, you're British. Never mind then.


However, even though you're entertaining like that, I have to help you out of the limbo of ignorance. Here, educate yourself:
Théophile Gautier
Alphonse de Lamartine
Alfred de Vigny