26-08-2005 23:43									#1
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It's late in the day, and I don't know if this has been suggested before, but after reading a book about the WWII battles in Burma, it seems to me that mountains should be impassable, unless there is a pass, or you build a road.

It's a minor change, but it would make a lot of difference in terms of strategic deployment of units.

What do think?

	26-08-2005 23:49									#2
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Historically it's very accurate. Kept India & China separate, and invaders needed to pass through the Khyber Pass in Afghanistan to get to the plains.

	27-08-2005 01:05									#3
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didn't they already say in an interview that mountains will be impassable to all units?

	27-08-2005 01:06									#4
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on a similar note.... i'd like to be able to build a "mountain pass" improvement on mountains that take very long to build ... not just simple roads.

	27-08-2005 01:24									#5
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I seem to remember someone crossing the Alps.

	27-08-2005 01:58									#6
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism I seem to remember someone crossing the Alps.

I'm cool with most of the current restrictions of civ3. Such as wheeled units. And with mods in civ4, we can tailor these to meet our needs for specific scenarios.

	27-08-2005 02:07									#7
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism I seem to remember someone crossing the Alps.

So because it happened once it should be so in the game too?

	27-08-2005 02:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by alva So because it happened once it should be so in the game too?

yes. this is a pretty famous example.

	27-08-2005 03:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dis yes. this is a pretty famous example.

It didn't end very well, though.

	27-08-2005 04:01									#10
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It was a succesful passage, and the only reason it didn't 'end' very well was that he was ordered to return home after quite some years.

	27-08-2005 04:07									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder It was a succesful passage, and the only reason it didn't 'end' very well was that he was ordered to return home after quite some years.

36 out of 37 elephants ended up dying.

	27-08-2005 04:11									#12
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In the whole of 15 years on Italian ground?

	27-08-2005 04:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder In the whole of 15 years on Italian ground?

No, the following winter.

	27-08-2005 08:27									#14
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I believe that it was said that mountains are impassable too, which brings the next question- does this include workers? are they completely impassable?

	27-08-2005 15:52									#15
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* looks a username *

"Impassable":

im·pass·a·ble Pronunciation (m-ps-bl)
adj.
Impossible to pass, cross, or overcome:

	27-08-2005 16:05									#16
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I´d make a joke, but I can´t be (wise) arsed.

	27-08-2005 16:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism I seem to remember someone crossing the Alps.

And I remember someone holding a mountain pass with a small force against an army multiple (maybe around 20) times the size of his force (at least for two days).
Hadn´t there been another small path around this pass, they probably would´ve been able to hold the pass for a much longer time (or perhaps would´ve even been able to completely block the pass if they had some dynamite at this time )

So IMHO it would be a good idea to include such things as mountain passes.

	27-08-2005 18:30									#18
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Point taken

But it would seem kinda odd to not be able to build roads on the mountain, to make them passable in later stages of the game.

	28-08-2005 00:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism I seem to remember someone crossing the Alps.

Yes, he went through a mountain pass.

To be realistic, the rule should be that you can't build roads through mountains until the industrial age.

I guessing here, but I think roads through mountains, excluding through mountain passes, was something that only occured in maybe the 19th century.

I think the only question is whether the random map generator could be programed to include mountain pases through a mountain area.

And what about jungles.

	28-08-2005 00:48									#20
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quote: I think the only question is whether the random map generator could be programed to include mountain pases through a mountain area.

Perhaps it could work like the river system.

The map generator puts a "mountain pass" inbetween 2 mountains. This lets units on either side of the mountain pass cross.

	31-08-2005 10:26									#21
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Well, if you take a look at the screenshots with mountains in them, you will see some which appear like snowcapped mountain peaks, which have no roads through them-and which are most likely impassable-and then you have what looks like humps between the peaks over which roads cross. This suggests to me that there will in fact be different types of mountains-with one sort being impassable and the other type being the equivalent of a 'Mountain Pass'. At least this is how I read it.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	31-08-2005 10:41									#22
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For strategic purposes, impassable mountains and jungles would be great! In fact, the mountains in Civ III are just annoying, not an obstacle. It’s pretty ridiculous. Mountains that can’t stop anything! (Except chariots, but who cares?)

	31-08-2005 11:13									#23
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You see, I for one do long to see situations where harsh terrain is a true impediment to early game expansionism-especially now that smaller nations are able to compete with larger ones. Now you really can have a Switzerland, a small nation which can avoid a lot of uneccessary wars simply through being almost surrounded by mountains, but still have enough passes through which it can trade goods and services to become very wealthy! That said, I think that this impediment should be a LOT less by the industrial and modern ages, when people can literally bore their way through the mountains to build railway tunnels!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	31-08-2005 11:49									#24
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Yah its great that mountains are impassable.

Jungles should also limit, eg. units with wheels cannot pass through, footmen who have their movement rate higher than 1, are cut down to 1. Footmen with a 1 movement rate, have a 50/50 chance of any movement at all.

This would mean that cutting jungle away to make for more land and easier passageways become an important task.

I liked the way whenever I would settle in South America during the later ages, I would have to cut away heaps of jungle to allow for irrigation.

	31-08-2005 12:12									#25
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This reminds me of a great movie, The Wrath of God, or rather: Aguirre, der Zorn Gottes.
It's about a large Spanish expedition to find El Dorado, the way they make the movie, you really see how hard it was to pass through the South American jungle.

	31-08-2005 16:35									#26
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its practicly impossible,yeah. and bugs

quote: Jungles should also limit, eg. units with wheels cannot pass through, footmen who have their movement rate higher than 1, are cut down to 1. Footmen with a 1 movement rate, have a 50/50 chance of any movement at all.

this is already in SMAC with fungus.works great

	31-08-2005 16:48									#27
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I think it would be good if you had two forms of 'Harsh' terrain. One which is completely impassable and one which simply has an incredibly high movement cost.
So, for instance, you might have intractable deserts (Dune Seas) , marshes and tundras and impassable mountains and jungles. Then a type of desert, tundra, marsh, mountain and jungle which costs 2-3MP. Obviously, as technology increases, the impassable terrain may in time become passable-though still at high cost-at least until you build a road/rail.

Of course, we should remember that we still only have the word of a Gamespot caption that mountains ARE impassable. I am still waiting for confirmation from a Firaxian before I get TOO excited!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	31-08-2005 17:00									#28
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quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker So, for instance, you might have intractable deserts (Dune Seas) , marshes and tundras and impassable mountains and jungles.

You could represent the dangers of junglesa and deserts by letting units who end their turn on a jungle or desert tile lose one hitpoint, representing those men who got killed by the dangers of the jungle or the desert (heat, getting lost, dangerous animals and the like )
Alternatively you could handle them like the oceans of Civ 1, giving them a probability of 50% to survive the terrain

Maybe you could also have special types of units to master certain terrains, for example being able to move in deserts/jungles without losing a hitpoint, or climbing mountains without passes (but of course these abilities should be restricted to a few types of units [and of course not the strongest within their time preiod ])

	31-08-2005 17:41									#29
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Mountains are now impassible by all units in Civ 4. A strategy could be to lure the enemy units to move along a mountain ridge and then encircle them and pin them down against the mountain. They would be forced to fight and die.

It's what Hannibal loved doing. Trapping romans against frozen rivers and lakes so they couldn't withdraw from the carthagian offensive and the annihilation would then be complete, cutting off the chance of enemy reinforcements as well.

	31-08-2005 17:55									#30
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Folk like the Magyar, Celts, Helvetii, Tibetian, and Inca did quite fine with mountains. It just takes a while, and often you have to do it unarmed. So I would let settlers/workers and maybe some units through, but with multi-turn movement costs (a la Colonization) and a chance of death (like early sea vessels face).