29-08-2005 19:47									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I would have no problem with that as long as people that drink, do drugs, are overweight, drive without seat belts, drive too fast, have dangerous hobbies, stay out in the sun too long with out protection, or those that engage in any other activities that are risky pay through the nose for healthcare as well.

Who's left?

(BTW I'm guessing that's what you were trying to say).

	29-08-2005 20:16									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin (BTW I'm guessing that's what you were trying to say).

Exactly

I see smokers as being the group picked on here, while other groups aren't. We are humans, we make choices not based solely on our health. I have no problem with paying up for my CHOICE... just as long as other people that make bad choices have to do the same.

	29-08-2005 20:22									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Yet you ride a motorcycle?

Not at the moment but I will again in the future. I was careful to take proper training and learn how to ride safely. When I do ride I wear a crash helmet and motorcycle clothing, not just a t-shirt and trainers.

The only inherently unsafe thing about motorcycles is the nut that holds the handlebars.

	29-08-2005 20:26									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I would have no problem with that as long as people that drink, do drugs, are overweight, drive without seat belts, drive too fast, have dangerous hobbies, stay out in the sun too long with out protection, or those that engage in any other activities that are risky pay through the nose for healthcare as well.

Seeing as I do none of the above in excess...

	29-08-2005 20:39									#95
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Seeing as I do none of the above in excess...

Good for you... and I agree that you shouldn't have to pay extra for bad choices of others (which you currently are)

I just hate hearing a lecture from some guy who is stuffing his face full of fast food that I should pay extra because I smoke and that he shouldn't

	29-08-2005 21:11									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Actually, here's an idea. As we all know from watching things like Columbo and Murder, She Wrote, your life insurance won't pay out if your death is ruled a suicide. So, make the same thing true if you die in an auto accident and it can be determined that you weren't wearing a seat belt; and, in case you live, let's have the failure to wear a seat belt void your medical insurance, too.

Actually in non-fatal accidents, a driver NOT AT FAULT could have their damage award for personal injury reduced drastically by not wearing a seatbelt. A person not wearing a seatbelt is considered to be contributory negligent and I have seen court awards reduced by 20 to 50%. The judges state it explicitly " well your injuries are worth 100K but I am awarding you 65K"

	29-08-2005 21:19									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I just hate hearing a lecture from some guy who is stuffing his face full of fast food that I should pay extra because I smoke

You really should quit

I hear that there is evidence that it is harmful or something

	29-08-2005 21:25									#98
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On smoking generally, we have bans here (not in bars) and I don't say that I personally object since I am a non-smoker but Ming has a point about the principle of the thing. My utopia would be a situation where there were adequate numbers of both smoking and non-smoking bars so a customer could decide. Driven by free choice of the market .. .

I think things have turned to the point that non-smoking establishments would compete quite well. I think the bars fear in a complete ban situation is that it really hurts with some of their clientele. Apparently a lot of heavy drinkers are also heavy smokers and might attend at a bar 7 days a week. To lose that customer and get me as a customer (even with 10 more like me) is still a losing proposition

	29-08-2005 21:29									#99
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Seat belts-- we have had those laws for a long time and to me its a no-brainer-- its a simple safety precaution that can save your life or prevent debilitating injury.

Even where there is no law, like bicycycle helmets, most clubs have helmet rules. One club had it in their FAQ as to why they had a helmet rule-- " because no other club memember should have to scrape your brains off the road"

	29-08-2005 21:37									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Sava yes my entire knowledge of modern medicine comes from ER and House episodes aside from the DNR and my folks knowing my wishes there aren't really any other things I can do legally are there? I mean, if there's a car accident and I'm in it, even a big sign that says "LET ME DIE" isn't going to stop people is it? didn't think so

Exactly my point, Sava.

You'd use up all those medical resources. Prevented simply by wearing a seat belt. And you won't do it? Pathetic.



Now everyone knows we have butted heads more than once. But this is me as a doctor, okay, and not as a Polytubbie:

SEE YOUR DOCTOR. Now.

I don't want to hear excuses or complaints, like "medication doesn't work," or anything else. You have a serious, serious, deadly disease, and you need to see a doctor to get help.

	29-08-2005 21:40									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Exactly I see smokers as being the group picked on here, while other groups aren't. We are humans, we make choices not based solely on our health. I have no problem with paying up for my CHOICE... just as long as other people that make bad choices have to do the same.

To be fair, Ming, the difference with smokers is that they directly impact the health of those around them. Overeaters, drinkers, etc., do not.

	29-08-2005 21:53									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer To be fair, Ming, the difference with smokers is that they directly impact the health of those around them. Overeaters, drinkers, etc., do not.

but it's not as if they are being forced to be there... nobody is forcing non-smokers to be in the presence of smokers.

You have a choice. Don't go to a resturaunt that has smoking if you don't want to be around smoking.

Don't use the government to legislate your tastes and force it down everyones' throats.

	29-08-2005 21:53									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer To be fair, Ming, the difference with smokers is that they directly impact the health of those around them. Overeaters, drinkers, etc., do not.

So does driving a car... walking down the street in downtown Chicago can be as bad if not worse than second hand smoke... and you have less choice about walking down the street, then make a DECISION to go into a bar where people are smoking. Should we outlaw cars as well? Oh that's right, it's easier to just pick on smokers

I'm not advocating that people should be allowed to smoke where ever they want. I like the restrictions put in place in publicly owned places. But a businessman should have the right to make his own decision, just like the patrons can decide whether they want to enter such establishments. Choices on BOTH SIDES.

	29-08-2005 22:05									#104
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Some choices are Hobson's choices.

	29-08-2005 22:09									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Personally, I have never agreed with the seatbelt law. I have always been of the mind "Fine. Don't wear your seatbelt, dumbass. Your choice." However, I guess I have never really thought of the examples that Che gave (the human missle deal), but that might be because I have never seen a human missle actually hit anything (they are soooo difficult to aim).

I've seen it happen once, as well as the loss of control once. First time we saw someone get hit from behind at full speed while they were stopped at a toll both. The person inside bounced up, hit the top of their car and then went into the back seat, while their car just stated rolling away.

In another accident, in which I was a participant, the dude next to me hit me then swerved away and into a lamp post. Neither the driver nor the passanger was wearing a seat belt, and the passanger ended up in the driver's lap with serious injuries. The driver wasn't so badly hurt. The car was totaled.

To all the "personal freedom" dorks, you do not have a "right" to use the roads. You are awarded a priveledge to use them, contingent on driving as safely as possible, and that priveledge can be revoked.

I suspect, however, the easiest way to insure that people wear their seat belts is to allow insurance companies to refuse payment to those who aren't wearing them at the time of the accident.

	29-08-2005 22:11									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ming But a businessman should have the right to make his own decision, just like the patrons can decide whether they want to enter such establishments. Choices on BOTH SIDES.

The problem is, no business ever declared itself smoke free until forced to do so, even though the majority wanted it. Anyway, we regulate all kinds of things businesses can or can't do. I don't see why this should be considered any different.

	29-08-2005 22:15									#107
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To all you "it saves lives" dorks....if saving lives was the REAL goal, you could do much better, thusly:

* Make a law banning personal autos (leaving them open for mass transit and transportation).

In one fell swoop, you dramatically reduce the number of deaths in the nation AND improve national health, shaving billions off of health care costs as more people bike it.

Harping on the few thousand lives saved by the "band-aid" solution is funny, in an odd sort of way.

-=Vel=-

	29-08-2005 22:22									#108
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Banning personal autos is not a viable solution. Clicking a seat belt is as easy as proverbial pie.


Laws aside, what is so difficult about using a seat belt?!?

	29-08-2005 22:22									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx * Make a law banning personal autos (leaving them open for mass transit and transportation).

If you were apeshit about "click it or ticket," how would you be about this? While I'm no fan of the personal auto, this would be political suicide for anyone proposing it, and it would have less than a snowballs' chance in hell of passing. Sometimes politics is about what you can do.

Incidentally, this is the exact reason why Eastern Bloc cars were so bad (think Trabi). It wasn't that they couldn't make good cars, they did. IIRC, the Benz motors were made in the same plant that made the Trabi, and the Soviets made a world class luxery sedan for the party leadership. The idea, though, was to make personal cars so inconvenient that people would prefer to use public transit instead. And guess what, everyone *****ed about it.

	29-08-2005 23:09									#110
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That's why I like coming here...

-=Vel=-

	29-08-2005 23:18									#111
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The problem is, no business ever declared itself smoke free until forced to do so, even though the majority wanted it.

First... that is not true... but to your point, why should the majority of people have a say on how people want to run their businesses... The "majority" want lower prices, but they aren't allowed to dictate that to the owners. They can make a statement by either giving a person their business or not...

quote: Anyway, we regulate all kinds of things businesses can or can't do. I don't see why this should be considered any different.

For your perspective, I can see why you feel that way... it doesn't effect you
Your above statement would imply that you don't mind if government regulates ALL aspects of a person business... what the heck, we have some regulations in place so it's no different if we keep adding more

Where does it stop...

	29-08-2005 23:18									#112
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Incidentally, this is the exact reason why Eastern Bloc cars were so bad (think Trabi). It wasn't that they couldn't make good cars, they did. IIRC, the Benz motors were made in the same plant that made the Trabi, and the Soviets made a world class luxery sedan for the party leadership. The idea, though, was to make personal cars so inconvenient that people would prefer to use public transit instead. And guess what, everyone *****ed about it.

Wow.

	29-08-2005 23:20									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ming First... that is not true... but to your point, why should the majority of people have a say on how people want to run their businesses.

Why not? It's a democracy, ain't it?

	29-08-2005 23:22									#114
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why not? It's a democracy, ain't it?

Using that argument, the "people" could demand FREE goods or services... so don't give me that crap

	29-08-2005 23:27									#115
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That is basically my entire poltical agenda, Ming. It's not a valid argument against me.

	29-08-2005 23:28									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I'm not advocating that people should be allowed to smoke where ever they want. I like the restrictions put in place in publicly owned places.

Why?

	29-08-2005 23:31									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Why?

I'm guessing because the lawmakers "own" those public places and as such have the right to allow or not allow smoking as they choose

	29-08-2005 23:51									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I'm guessing because the lawmakers "own" those public places and as such have the right to allow or not allow smoking as they choose

And that is indeed a good guess. I have no problem with the Government (local or Fed) who actually owns the land making the rules. Just like I have no problem with owners of private business being allowed to make that decision for their businesses.

Also, public places like court houses, government offices... people have no choice but to go to these places. And I have no problem protecting their rights to a smoke free enviornment in places where they have no choice but to go.

But for bars, people have the CHOICE on whether to enter them or not. They can make that decision with their pocketbooks and nobody is forcing them to go in

	30-08-2005 00:01									#119
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"You can have the car in any colour, as long as its black". It's not a choice if you need a car. Similarly, "You don't have to go in to that bar", is not a choice if you want a few drinks with your mates and they are not bothered by smoke that all the bars have.

You are claiming choice, but its not that simple.

	30-08-2005 00:12									#120
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Yes it is that simple... you have the choice to enter or not... frankly, the reasons don't change the fact that the choice is still yours to make.