30-08-2005 00:19									#121
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I think what Calgary did was a sensible compromise. A restaurant or pub can remain "smoking" but NO ONE under the age of 18 is permitted inside. So smokers still have their bars but families will go elsewhere and most places opted to be no smoking .

Well actually most larger places have a restaurant (no smoking) and a "pub" (smoking). In most cases the menus are almost identical

	30-08-2005 00:21									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin "You can have the car in any colour, as long as its black". It's not a choice if you need a car. Similarly, "You don't have to go in to that bar", is not a choice if you want a few drinks with your mates and they are not bothered by smoke that all the bars have. You are claiming choice, but its not that simple.

IN practice the choice does exist-- We have bars within a few clocks of my workplace-- some allow smoking and some don't. We go to the non-smoking ones much much more since the group is predominantly non-smoking. The smokers don't even raise their voice

	30-08-2005 00:25									#123
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Ok somebodies holding a gun to your head and demanding you do something. You have the choice of doing it and living and not doing and dying. Choice? (ok far out example but hopefully my point comes out)

Flubber - What happens if none of the clubs/bars offer smokefree? Many eating places went smokefree here a long time ago, but all bars/clubs (ie saturday night entertainment) didn't till it was legislated.

As far as I'm aware it has not hurt business at all in this country so for all you its gonna hurt business people it ain't gonna happen. Peoples will to drink in town outways their laziness to stay sitting inside and light up, thus they still go into town and use either the outside areas provided or take a couple of steps outside.

	30-08-2005 00:29									#124
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The problem here is that bars that go smoke free usually lose money... so some of the bar owners want the government to mandidate that all bars don't allow smoking... so that they won't be at a disadvantage for being smoke free.

That is crap...

Yes, there are some smoke free bars here... but they generally aren't the "hot" places. Gee, I wonder why

	30-08-2005 00:30									#125
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Of course, the solution to the smoking debate is not to ban smoking, but to demand a high level of ventilation and effective smoke extractors.

	30-08-2005 00:32									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Of course, the solution to the smoking debate is not to ban smoking, but to demand a high level of ventilation and effective smoke extractors.

Sounds great in concept... but even as a smoker, I have to laugh. Better ventilation and effective smoke extractors help... but I've never been in a heavy smoking bar where they actually work.

	30-08-2005 00:34									#127
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Do you support the concept of liquor licensing, or do you think that any place that wants to serve alcohol should be able to do so any time they want, as long as it's not to minors (which in itself brings up the question of having a legal drinking age at)?

	30-08-2005 00:34									#128
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Go to VEGAS, the last bastion of smoker's freedom.
But there are many casinos opening no smoking sections for gamblers. There are even a few bars that allow no smoking. They're giving people a choice.
The interesting thing was the no smoking gambling areas were quite crowded. The no smoking bar was always empty. Let the owners choose and the market place help them decide.

And on the seat belt issue, there will always be those examples where the seat belt led to a death. And there will always be knuckleheads that use those examples as an excuse not to use them. I have no problem with letting them choose to be idiots. I used to only use my seat belt when I thought about it. (my first car didn't even have them) But when our daughter was old enough to be in the car without a baby seat, we had a rule that we wouldn't move till she had her seat belt on. She used to stare at me until I would buckle mine. Now out of habit, I put it on 99.9% of the time. Daughters are wonderful.

	30-08-2005 00:38									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber I think what Calgary did was a sensible compromise. A restaurant or pub can remain "smoking" but NO ONE under the age of 18 is permitted inside. So smokers still have their bars but families will go elsewhere and most places opted to be no smoking . Well actually most larger places have a restaurant (no smoking) and a "pub" (smoking). In most cases the menus are almost identical

How is this a sensible compromise? It's regulating private business every bit as much as requiring all places to be smoke free.

	30-08-2005 00:39									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Sounds great in concept... but even as a smoker, I have to laugh. Better ventilation and effective smoke extractors help... but I've never been in a heavy smoking bar where they actually work.

It creates CHOICE. You can go the bar with the light smokers because the ventilation is effective enough, rather than the heavy smokers bar! CHOICE! Why don't you want to give people the CHOICE!

	30-08-2005 01:37									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Flubber - What happens if none of the clubs/bars offer smokefree?

Then there would not be smoke-free places -- Free choice. But if enough people made it known that they wanted a smoke-free alternative, someone would offer one. It might have taken longer but it would happen.

The fact that nobody chooses a specific option today does not mean they do not have that choice

	30-08-2005 01:42									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin It creates CHOICE. You can go the bar with the light smokers because the ventilation is effective enough, rather than the heavy smokers bar! CHOICE! Why don't you want to give people the CHOICE!

You misunderstood my response... I have no problem with people putting in that type of equipment... I even applaud those that do. My point was, in most cases, they don't make much of a difference

	30-08-2005 01:45									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki How is this a sensible compromise? It's regulating private business every bit as much as requiring all places to be smoke free.

Simple-- The argument against regulation is about the choice of going into a smoking place . Children don't have that ability so the state has made that choice with regard to children in public venues. The parents still have the full choice for themselves when not with children. The businesses had a choice to be smoking and non and abide by the rules that that status brings

Note I do not support any parent that "chooses" to regularly inflict tobacco smoke on their children in their own home . Knowing what we know about tobacco, I can respect a person's right to do that to their own body but am uncomfortable with their "right" wrt their children. It is beyond what I think the state can or should get involved in though

	30-08-2005 01:52									#134
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I propose a public ban of children.

	30-08-2005 01:58									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I propose a public ban of children.

I propose my son plays beneath your bedroom window with his drums while you piddle away another lazy-ass day

	30-08-2005 02:06									#136
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that's fine... I'll just "piddle" out my window...

	30-08-2005 02:08									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Ming You misunderstood my response... I have no problem with people putting in that type of equipment... I even applaud those that do. My point was, in most cases, they don't make much of a difference

I understood it fine, did you not see the hint of burlesque in my post?

	30-08-2005 02:09									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Sava that's fine... I'll just "piddle" out my window...

Sava-- trust me here-- you do not want to get into a contest of excretions with a two year old

	30-08-2005 02:16									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I have no problem with a ban on smoking indoors in publicly owned places. On the other hand, an owner of a business/establishment should be allowed to make his own decision on whether smoking is allowed. If there were such a big demand for it in bars, bars that outlawed smoking should be prospering, and most bars should be smoke free already... funny, they aren't. Now people want to make that decision for the owners... and force it down their throat, even if it hurts their business. It should be up to the owner... and employees can decide whether they want that enviornment. It's like people that build homes next to an airport, then complain about the noise. THE AIRPORT WAS THERE... WHAT DID YOU EXPECT. People that have a problem with second hand smoke shouldn't plan their career path on working in a bar.

Public health is more important than private profit.

	30-08-2005 02:16									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Ming If people don't want to wear them... fine. However, they should be forced to admit it to the insurance companies so that only they pay higher rates and not eveybody who does wear them

So, you want people to volunteer the information that would raise their rates?

" Excuse me officer, I know you didn't clock me exceeding the speed limit because I had my radar detector on. I just wanted you to be aware of my speeding"

	30-08-2005 02:18									#141
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Than all tobaco products should be illegal, and liquer, and fast food.

	30-08-2005 02:23									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Public health is more important than private profit.

What rah said
Oh... and add all fossel fuel burning vehicles to the ban list as well

Public health is so important to the government that they continue to increase the taxes on smokes and drinks to pay for non health related expenditures, instead of banning them

	30-08-2005 02:29									#143
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quote: Originally posted by rah Than all tobaco products should be illegal, and liquer, and fast food.

Well it would be better if we used less of all of them . But its part of our cherished freedoms to be able to do things that are bad for ourselves

	30-08-2005 02:30									#144
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BINGO

	30-08-2005 02:33									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Sava-- trust me here-- you do not want to get into a contest of excretions with a two year old

QFT

	30-08-2005 02:38									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber But its part of our cherished freedoms to be able to do things that are bad for ourselves

My eating fast food doesn't hurt you. My smoking does. Hence, it's perfectly legit to regulate one while not the other.

	30-08-2005 02:40									#147
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try the same argument with liquer

and if you choose not to stand next to me, the tobaco doesn't hurt you either.

and i won't even talk about guns.

	30-08-2005 02:41									#148
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What if I was standing there first? The argument works with liquor, and guns are protected by the Constitution.

	30-08-2005 02:45									#149
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Then what about pollution from cars...

	30-08-2005 02:48									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What rah said Oh... and add all fossel fuel burning vehicles to the ban list as well

The fossil fuel thing might limit itself to some extent if the price increases start limiting consumption. So far it seems the craziest thing as demand appears to continue unabated despite massive price increases. I can't see how that can continue in the long term