31-08-2005 02:28									#1
	Sparta-Angel relations part II Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The other thread has already crossed 500 posts, so here's a new one.

Link to the previous thread.

	31-08-2005 06:47									#2
	Tired of ads?

How about posting this as a new thread in the general forum? It might provide some roleplay fun.

Interfactional Court of Justice: Case #1

The Spartan Federation & The University Protectorate
versus
The Data Angels

Subject: Illegal loan of energy credits

***

While the University Protectorate can according to the MY 2154 Treaty not conduct any independent foreign affairs, they have a considerable economic and political freedom concerning internal matters. For example while many sectors of Spartan economy are government controlled, the University Protectorate has a free market with a privately-owned bank system.

It appears that the Data Angels have made abuse of this. Crypteia has after years long thorough investigation concluded that 200 energy credits has been stolen from our Protectorate. This was done by Angel operatives, who registered a fake firm in the University. These operatives then loaned 200 energy credits from the largest bank in the University, Minerva Bank. Using frauded documents, Minerva was led to believe investing in the firm would be money well spent.

Nothing could be further from the truth. As soon as the Angel operatives had acquired the desired 200 credits, they set up an overseas bank account and gradually sneaked the energy in small amounts to Angel lands. As the University security can be lax from time to time, this went unnoticed until the Spartan elite Crypteia divisions noticed the missing energy during a routine check.

Here we present proof of the crime committed. Naturally top secret information has been omitted for the public eye.



As the Federation has repeatedly stated we would not allow unapproved contact with the University, there is no excuse for the Angel behaviour. Therefore we demand immediate repayment of the outstanding loan to the University Protectorate.

	31-08-2005 22:05									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Good idea, I suggest you post it in the Peace Conference threads which you bumped

Messing with the Angels could be very effective right now. We have just completed invading their neighbour and they no doubt know that we have a large strike force right on their doorstep. I think they might comply if we put enough pressure on them.

	31-08-2005 22:34									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

And if they refuse, we could bomb Mart Pact and infiltrate the empty base before they build the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. I'm almost hoping they refuse to pay.

	01-09-2005 12:42									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

My answer to all diplomacy efforts: No harm trying, so go ahead. Do not expect actual results, though.

	01-09-2005 14:12									#6
	Got spare money?

We have already received real-life results in the form of a rather funny reply from GeoModder

As for actual in-game results, I think Maniacs idea is a good one. Either they pay back or we bomb and infiltrate them. Should be put it to a vote?

	01-09-2005 18:21									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

it has my vote

GGLIE

	01-09-2005 21:58									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How about replying:

"What would be the purpose of finding a 'neutral' faction (if such a thing is possible) to 'broker' between us? We are not trying to arrange some deal here - we are here to claim back what belongs to the University. So if you wish to contest the University's right to these 200 credits, we should go to court and find a judge. Though of course with such an action we Spartans also have our reservations, as we realize in the end laws and the concept and content of 'justice' are determined by who can enforce their will most thoroughly."

(And of course, we can enforce our will most thoroughly. )

	01-09-2005 23:56									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Should be put it to a vote?

It has mine alright.

	03-09-2005 05:56									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmm, missed the window of opportunity to post my reply above.

How about this in reply to Mart's new post?

quote: In response to message by Colonel Maniac Data Angels are very sad and surprised that Spartan Federation sees recent events in such negative way. We would like to point the following aspects of this issue: 1) We did in fact received 118 EC from Provost Zakharov, NOT 200. 2) Some time ago Spartan Federation informed Data Angels, that the Federation would like to improve economic situation of University of Planet. We saw this opportunity exactly in this way. We believe that the recent economic operation will improve University of Planet economy. Provost Zakharov will receive from Data Angels not 118 EC but together with interests 200 EC payed to him on a regular basis. This constitutes over 69 % more energy credits that was loaned to us, and this interest rate is very high and beneficial for University of Planet. We believe, that Provost Zakharov will spend this additional energy transfered to him in efficient way, what will have positive impact on Spartan Federation economy as well. 3) We presently pay back the loan to the University of Planet on a regular basis and will continue to do so as long as the whole amount including the interest of 69 % will be transferred to Provost Zakharov. Therefore we see no reason to transfer any energy at this moment to Spartan Federation. 4) In case if for any reason University of Planet would not be able to receive the energy credits for the loan from us, we would repay the amount to Spartan Federation, but not before Data Angels would be relieved from obligation to University of Planet. 5) Regarding the claim, that Data Angels broke the law, Provost Zakharov did not mentioned to us any of the limitation to his economic decisions. We believe, that if Spartan Federation wishes to investigate this matter, Provost Zakharov should be questioned by you. We, of course, support Provost Zakharov, since as mentioned in paragraph (2) we consider it a very beneficial agreement for University of Planet and Spartan Federation. 6) We believe, that Spartan Federation sees this as reasonable and will appreciate this economic agreement as very positive. Sincerely, Data Angels IT Mart

1) We thank you for sharing this information.

2) The flawed logic and mathematics in this paragraph may indicate why the Angel economy is performing so poorly compared to the Spartan one. The annual interest rate of the loan in question is 2/118= 1.7%. This is ridicously low. By comparison, a common practice such as harvesting a forest with a supply crawler returns an annual profit of 6.7% on the investment. Why, if the Angels believe a 1.7% interest rate is very high, the Federation would be more than happy to lend money from you after this matter has been arranged.

3) We are not asking for any money to be transferred to the Federation. We are asking for the credits to be returned to Minerva Bank - with headquarters in the University Protectorate - from which the money was fraudulously obtained.

5) Provost Zakharov had nothing to do with arranging this loan. As you surely must know, you obtained this loan from Minerva Bank.

	03-09-2005 11:51									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

One question. Why did you not add the adequate punch line (i.e. "Our words are backed with a large Staff of Whoop-arse")?

	03-09-2005 12:00									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is an interesting discussion indeed!

I don't have much in the way of economics education, but I have often been thinking along these lines of what the interest of an investment is. Is the interest rate really as high as 1.7%? Remember that some of what they pay is part of the 118 lent out. So roughly half of the payment is amortization. (I am not an economist, nor do I have a loan, so I don't really know ). The deal is obviously not profitable anyway.

I'm not sure we need to answer in detail to every point raised. We certainly don't have to, we're bigger than they are. We should just boom back something which is short, concise and to the point.

What I would like is for them to pay back the money quicker, say at 10 times the speed, ie: 20 a turn. I can't see how that would be possible in-game however.

One option is to have them pay back the full amount in 10 years time. This has the downside of giving them time to prepare themselves for an attack from us and simply not pay back.

Another option is to simply insist that they pay everything back right away, all 200 of them, next turn. We can then extort it from Lal and pay them back some of the extra money, minus the proper interest (say 200 - 140 = 60 ec).

We should advise them to do this by next turn, or we will consider this a betrayal of confidence, and we might mention that some members of the Junta consider it an act of war.

	03-09-2005 12:12									#13
	Remove this text

I would boom something like this:

quote: We are not impressed by your attempts to excuse this obviously fraudulent action. Fortunately, the Junta is forgiving and will allow you to make up for this transgression without substantial loss on your behalf, other than that of honour. The Junta has decided that you will pay back the full amount of 200 ec to the University next planet year. The Federation, in its greatness, recognizes that this is unfair to the Angels since it constitutes a most heavy economic loss of roughly 80 ec. So the Junta, in the interests of world peace and stability, will gracefully refund the Angels to the amount of 60 ec, compensating us for actual interest and transaction costs. The Junta would consider a denial of this agreement a serious breach of confidence on the Angels behalf. Certain members have even mentioned that they would consider it an act of war.

	03-09-2005 20:21									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I don't have much in the way of economics education, but I have often been thinking along these lines of what the interest of an investment is. Is the interest rate really as high as 1.7%? Remember that some of what they pay is part of the 118 lent out. So roughly half of the payment is amortization. (I am not an economist, nor do I have a loan, so I don't really know ). The deal is obviously not profitable anyway.

Yeah you're right. It should probably be 82/118=69% interest over hundred years. Divided by 100 = 0.69% annual interest. Ten times less than a crawler on a forest (2 minerals annual return on a 30-min crawler = 1/15 = 6.7%).

quote: We should advise them to do this by next turn, or we will consider this a betrayal of confidence, and we might mention that some members of the Junta consider it an act of war.

While I like that, I think we should wait a year with this, and keep the conversation ongoing and somewhat friendly for now. Currently the Disco Volante isn't in position yet to infiltrate the Angels if they refuse.

	04-09-2005 14:22									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Yeah you're right. It should probably be 82/118=69% interest over hundred years. Divided by 100 = 0.69% annual interest. Ten times less than a crawler on a forest (2 minerals annual return on a 30-min crawler = 1/15 = 6.7%).

And don't forget that you can 'cash' the crawler any time you like by MM:ing it.

quote: While I like that, I think we should wait a year with this, and keep the conversation ongoing and somewhat friendly for now. Currently the Disco Volante isn't in position yet to infiltrate the Angels if they refuse.

Good idea We have all kinds of ways to stall, and this economic discussion is a start. Point out the terrible economic terms of this investment, and if they try to defend their position they will only look like fools

	05-09-2005 02:39									#16
	Suffering from ads?

Can't the Angles just borrow money from their "allies" ? Instead of causing this huge mess.

	05-09-2005 04:10									#17
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Good idea We have all kinds of ways to stall, and this economic discussion is a start. Point out the terrible economic terms of this investment, and if they try to defend their position they will only look like fools

I posted an edited version of the message posted previously. As you said there's no need to reply to every single point, so I kept it short and to the point.

	09-09-2005 15:34									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What should our reaction be to the latest Angel message?

Continue negotiations, or use it as an excuse to attack and infiltrate them?

	09-09-2005 19:28									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Maniac What should our reaction be to the latest Angel message? Continue negotiations, or use it as an excuse to attack and infiltrate them?

stall with negotiations... another attack would be too ... uh... spartan of us

	09-09-2005 22:23									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What would be the goal of stalling negotiations?

	10-09-2005 11:42									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Maniac What should our reaction be to the latest Angel message? Continue negotiations, or use it as an excuse to attack and infiltrate them?

I vote for attack and infiltration. We need to start throwing our weight around anyway, force them to mobilize at the very least.

	10-09-2005 12:23									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm with Snod on this one - let's go boink some heads

	10-09-2005 18:39									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I'm also for attack and infiltrate, so that makes a clear majority I think.

Another question: should the purpose of the attack stay very limited, ie only do the necessary to infiltrate, or attack with all we have available? I guess the answer would depend of course on the available Angel air defenses.

	10-09-2005 19:13									#24
	Tired of ads?

I won't take position on whether to attack or not (seems there is already a majority).

Just to say we'll have a clearer picture of our goals and what can be achieved once we get them infiltrated. Meanwhile, let's plan for the worst case!

	10-09-2005 19:27									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

How about posting something like this in the conference thread in the meanwhile:

"We have no interest in your delaying tactics. You shall pay the University back their credits RIGHT NOW!"

	10-09-2005 22:02									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Maniac How about posting something like this in the conference thread in the meanwhile: "We have no interest in your delaying tactics. You shall pay the University back their credits RIGHT NOW!"

Well, maybe we shouldn't give them any hints. It is probably easy for them to make this a lot more difficult for us than it has to be. Maybe we can just be content to do a surprise attack.

As for goals, I say we should use all the noodles we have and throw them at them until they sue for peace, unless they have a terrific air force which would cause us large losses.

I think we should be liberal with peace talks though, they are fun, and we are in a period of building up our infrastructure after all, not building a second wave of planes.

Edit: Btw Vishniac, it would be interesting to hear your position on the matter, perhaps you can win over a few votes (it isn't too late to change the decision). Unless you have some political reason to keep it to yourself of course

	11-09-2005 00:52									#27
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Edit: Btw Vishniac, it would be interesting to hear your position on the matter, perhaps you can win over a few votes (it isn't too late to change the decision). Unless you have some political reason to keep it to yourself of course

Indeed I have.
As implied in my signature, it's already a full time job at reception of the turn to plan how to provide you with the best techs and the most powerful industrial capacity.

I don't see any big pro or con, so I let the matter be decided by the Ministry of Defense.
Pro: Will be great to have the Angels infiltrated.
Con: One start a war but doesn't know who'll finish it.
That said, I'm reasonably confident.

	11-09-2005 05:22									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Maniac What would be the goal of stalling negotiations?

meh sorry I was just trying to inject some humor

	15-09-2005 06:23									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Should we send some declaration of war or terms for a truce or something to the Angels?

	16-09-2005 05:02									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I just thought up something, although its a crazy idea you guys might wana mull over it.

With the war currently going our way (in just 1 turn lol) lets just say the Angles offer truce/peace terms within the next few turns as we capture Enigma Machine and obliterate much of their cities. We could demand a total demilitarization of their faction and a forced pacthood whereby we would provide the military defence for their remaining cities and in turn they give all cred/research to us. This is similar to what the US did with Japan and it would help us move faster towards "recovery" (turning our attention to jucier targets)with less worries about an angle counterattack down the road.

Of course I'm not even sure if this is allowed in the ACDG game rules so feel free to critique or comment.

P.S. I've never been around for the end of ACDG games and I was wondering when do people declare them "complete"? Like when the game victory conditions are met or do the mods say someone's clearly won. Cause this can help keep the Angles "in the game"/"active" (well as active as a submissive AI is, but still).