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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Ninot
It always amazes me that big media corporations can get cameras in front of these people, and not help them in the process.
I guess that would ruin the story or something. |
I think the reason for that is, if they help one person, a mob of people will rush them asking for help. There is no way they can help everyone they see.
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Most of the time, Jack. Unfortunately, this one is looking like a cluster****. |
In New Orleans that is true, but in other parts of the country thankfully this is not the case.
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Kull
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El Paso, TX USA
Mar 1999
time: 22:33
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There's a lot of fingerpointing at the US Federal Govt about this whole disaster, but hopefully I can shed some light on the pre-storm accusations:
First of all, the US Constitution is quite specific about Federal versus State powers. In the case of preparing a city for a storm - to include emergency plans, evacuation orders, and postioning of the National Guard - almost everything is in the hands of state and local officials (the only exception being some limited coordination tasks and prepping of federally controlled institutions). The Federal Government may not - by law - intervene or countermand any of this. The Feds can only get involved after-the-fact, and even then only in the event of a disaster.
With respect to Army Corps of Engineer funding, again some perspective is in order. Do you have any idea how many different projects and tasks they support in the US? Well, neither do I! But it's pretty darn large, and they can't possibly take on all the project requests that come across their desks. To fully fund a New Orleans Levee project that would save the city from a Cat 5 Hurricane would necessitate the cancelltion of scores of efforts in other states. And here's the dirty little secret - that would be political suicide. Supporting the 2 senators from Louisiana at the cost of infuriating 20 others is simply not how things get done in this country. If you think I exaggerate, just look at the frenzy over BRAC - it turns out that every military base in the US is absolutely CRITICAL to the safety of our nation....well, at least according to the local Senator. And the same would be true of an attempt to spend ACoE funds in a truly need-based fashion.
For those who insist on playing the Iraq card (i.e "we could have spent the war money to save New Orleans"), all I can say is that the same need was there during 8 years of the Clinton Administration - with as booming an economy as we've seen and no wars to speak of anywhere.....and did we spend that surplus on a massive NO levvee system? Hell no. So stop pointing political fingers unless you want to aim 'em at both parties (in which case I might join you).
Just keep in mind that human nature is such that we don't make huge changes in our lives or our policies unless some kind of disaster strikes. Would the TSA have ever passed Congress if not for 9-11? Would the US have raced for the moon without Sputnik? Would the Dutch have built the Ostershelte (sp?) Project without the 1953 flood? Would the French have built the Maginot line without 1914? You know the answers.
As to how well the Feds are doing in the post disaster phase.....well, that's a different subject. But again, be aware that their tasks are complicated tremendously by the constitutional constraints imposed upon the State-Federal relationship.
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Kull
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El Paso, TX USA
Mar 1999
time: 22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly I defy you to show me anything in the Constitution that is "quite specific" about this. |
You are correct, the Constitution is a very short document, and what is "quite specific" is the following fact. The Federal Government only has power in those areas SPECIFICALLY granted to it by that document. Search though you might, you'll find nothing in the area of "preparedness for natural disasters". By default, all other powers - including that - fall to the states. Look at any other hurricanes in the past and you'll see that all governmental actions that specifically address the movement of citizens, equipment, and emergency personnel are ALWAYS the province of Governors, Mayors, and local law enforcement. (With the exception, as noted earlier, of things like military installations in the affected area.) I ask you very nicely to find even one example of the President of the United States or any other Federal Official taking anything other than an advisory role at this stage of the action.
quote:
While you're at it, I defy you to explain all the considerable funding the Feds do provide for disaster preparedness. |
Nothing unusual there. The Constitution allows the Congress to spend taxes in almost any way they see fit. A good example would be the massive amounts of money spent on things like education and back-to work programs. They can even impose restrictions on how the money is spent, and require reports, etc. They cannot however fund an army of teachers and put them to work in a federally controlled public school system. The same is true of disaster prep funds. The watchword of the day is "guidance", not operational control.
quote:
Take as much time as you like -- it's not a very long document. In the meantime, would you mind sharing some of the drugs you're on? |
Why the hostility? Wouldn''t you rather have a civilized discussion?
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Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ninot
It always amazes me that big media corporations can get cameras in front of these people, and not help them in the process.
I guess that would ruin the story or something. |
You must have inside information that I, as a journalist, don't have, huh?
Fact is, the media is helping out. Hell, my company — the second-largest media empire in America — is in the process of trying to raise millions of dollars to aid the folks affected by this disaster. I plan on giving between $25 to $50 toward the effort, depending on what I can scrounge up after paying a $750 car repair bill.
Other media types are helping out, too. They're just not necessarily bragging about it on air or via print because, frankly, that'd bring folks like you, Ninot, out of the woodwork to complain about that, too (and rightly so). I have my problems with big corporations, but to automatically assume they never have the "little guy's" interest at heart is a bit preposterous. After all, you can only piss on the "little guy" for so long before a million of them band together and decide not to do business with you anymore.
Gatekeeper
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Jack_www
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatekeeper
You must have inside information that I, as a journalist, don't have, huh?
Fact is, the media is helping out. Hell, my company — the second-largest media empire in America — is in the process of trying to raise millions of dollars to aid the folks affected by this disaster. I plan on giving between $25 to $50 toward the effort, depending on what I can scrounge up after paying a $750 car repair bill.
Other media types are helping out, too. They're just not necessarily bragging about it on air or via print because, frankly, that'd bring folks like you, Ninot, out of the woodwork to complain about that, too (and rightly so). I have my problems with big corporations, but to automatically assume they never have the "little guy's" interest at heart is a bit preposterous. After all, you can only piss on the "little guy" for so long before a million of them band together and decide not to do business with you anymore.
Gatekeeper |
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kull
You are correct, the Constitution is a very short document, and what is "quite specific" is the following fact. The Federal Government only has power in those areas SPECIFICALLY granted to it by that document. Search though you might, you'll find nothing in the area of "preparedness for natural disasters". By default, all other powers - including that - fall to the states. Look at any other hurricanes in the past and you'll see that all governmental actions that specifically address the movement of citizens, equipment, and emergency personnel are ALWAYS the province of Governors, Mayors, and local law enforcement. (With the exception, as noted earlier, of things like military installations in the affected area.) I ask you very nicely to find even one example of the President of the United States or any other Federal Official taking anything other than an advisory role at this stage of the action. |
The notion that "by default" all powers not vested in the federal government fall to the states is highly, highly specious, and highly contested. Because the constitution is a deliberately vague document, the scope of federal and state powers is also vague, and subject to the ongoing adjudication of the courts. If anything, given New Orleans' status as one of the country's largest ports, the Interstate Commerce Clause could be used to cover this.
As for your "give me one example": okay. Hurricane Camille: Nixon sent upwards of 1,000 federal troops to Mississippi to impose martial law and maintain the dusk-to-dawn curfew. And that's just off the top of my head.
Sorry to seem rude, but you're weighing in here as if you're some kind of constitutional scholar, and it's not at all apparent that you know what you're talking about.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ninot
It always amazes me that big media corporations can get cameras in front of these people, and not help them in the process.
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Journalists help these people by showing the problems that they face.
Media companies do not have the money, equipment or skills to feed, house and evacuate these people.
And to follow up on Gatekeeper's comments, the newspaper corporation I work for has set up a matching fund for relief aid. For every $1 an employee donates, the company will donate $1.50.
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Kull
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El Paso, TX USA
Mar 1999
time: 22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
The notion that "by default" all powers not vested in the federal government fall to the states is highly, highly specious, and highly contested. Because the constitution is a deliberately vague document, the scope of federal and state powers is also vague, and subject to the ongoing adjudication of the courts. |
I would disagree that the Constitution is "vague" or that Federal Power arising from anything other than the Constitution is "specious". It is true that both State and Federal governments contest their respective powers in the courts, but few would disgree that the broad outlines of both Federal and State power have become well established over the past two centuries.
To that effect, what we are discussing here is the specific issue of which governmental entity has operational control over preparedness for natural disasters. In this case, as demonstrated by the actions of the respective entities during previous natural disasters, that role lies with the States. To my knowledge, there is no instance of the Federal Government attempting to take this power from the states, nor they using the courts to fob it off on the Feds.
quote:
If anything, given New Orleans' status as one of the country's largest ports, the Interstate Commerce Clause could be used to cover this. |
And well it might. However, no Federal Government - be it Democrat or Republican - has ever chosen to do so.
quote:
As for your "give me one example": okay. Hurricane Camille: Nixon sent upwards of 1,000 federal troops to Mississippi to impose martial law and maintain the dusk-to-dawn curfew. And that's just off the top of my head. |
That's true, but it's not germane to this discussion, since Nixon's actions took place after Camille, not before. If you refer to my opening post, I specifically referred to governemt powers during the pre-disaster period.
quote:
Sorry to seem rude, but you're weighing in here as if you're some kind of constitutional scholar, and it's not at all apparent that you know what you're talking about. |
I'm not a constitutional scholar, but I'm fairly familiar with the document. It's obvious that you disagree with my analysis, but that should never preclude an honest weighing of your opponents thesis.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:33
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Weird times we live in. I think it's self evident the time to take strong leadership role has gone by already. But maybe something can be still done. The utmost importance should be to take up and go to New Orleans right now. No not tomorrow, not in 2 hours, now, just order someone to take few clothes and some food to the chopper. That's it.
Because, the people in desperation are on the edge. On the edge of joining the anarchy. As a result of that, lots of people will die, either from violence, lack of medical supplies, or prolonged situation.
Now is the time when they need all the help they need, emotional one. And that starts from leader going in there, stating that we are here, we won't go away, we know this situation, we are going to rescue everyone, help is on the way, we have ordered everyone here and no expenses saved, so everyone should save their strength, help each other and wait for few seconds more!
THis is the message they need to see and hear. It's the only counter to the growing social breakdowns. Vital, important. Saves lives it does.
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Kull
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El Paso, TX USA
Mar 1999
time: 22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
My mistake, I misread your first post. My bad. |
Thanks. You are a gentleman, sir.
quote:
It is true that Federal law (though not the Constitution; the governing legislation is the Reagan-era Stafford Act) prevents FEMA from taking an active role in mobilization prior to an emergency. |
I suspect it's no accident that FEMA was not tasked with Pre-disaster control. It would have exceeded the "understood" division of powers between the Feds and the states. Had Congress arrogated this power to itself, we would surely have seen a battle in the courts.
quote:
But no one's talking about that (unless maybe Che is; I can't recall). |
In this thread, that's true. But other of the Katrina threads include posts castigating the Federal Government's predisaster failure, and I felt it would be useful to shed some light there.
quote:
The big issue is whether the Feds did all that they could have to care for the infrastructure for which they are traditionally reponsible, like the levees and the pumping system. Apparently, they didn't -- and they could have. |
I previously offered my theory as to why the Army Corps of Engineers didn't "Cat5-proof" the levees, so I won't revisit that here. (Although you are welcome to challenge my analysis.) But as for caring and maintaining the systems AFTER they were built by the ACoE, I strongly suspect that role was taken on by the city or parish. In which case, once again, the Feds are not technically liable for any maintenance related failures.
This has been a most enjoyable discussion, but alas it's late and I must seek the refuge of the covers. Good night.
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Ted Striker
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United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kull
There's a lot of fingerpointing at the US Federal Govt about this whole disaster, but hopefully I can shed some light on the pre-storm accusations:
First of all, the US Constitution is quite specific about Federal versus State powers. In the case of preparing a city for a storm - to include emergency plans, evacuation orders, and postioning of the National Guard - almost everything is in the hands of state and local officials (the only exception being some limited coordination tasks and prepping of federally controlled institutions). The Federal Government may not - by law - intervene or countermand any of this. The Feds can only get involved after-the-fact, and even then only in the event of a disaster.
With respect to Army Corps of Engineer funding, again some perspective is in order. Do you have any idea how many different projects and tasks they support in the US? Well, neither do I! But it's pretty darn large, and they can't possibly take on all the project requests that come across their desks. To fully fund a New Orleans Levee project that would save the city from a Cat 5 Hurricane would necessitate the cancelltion of scores of efforts in other states. And here's the dirty little secret - that would be political suicide. Supporting the 2 senators from Louisiana at the cost of infuriating 20 others is simply not how things get done in this country. If you think I exaggerate, just look at the frenzy over BRAC - it turns out that every military base in the US is absolutely CRITICAL to the safety of our nation....well, at least according to the local Senator. And the same would be true of an attempt to spend ACoE funds in a truly need-based fashion.
For those who insist on playing the Iraq card (i.e "we could have spent the war money to save New Orleans"), all I can say is that the same need was there during 8 years of the Clinton Administration - with as booming an economy as we've seen and no wars to speak of anywhere.....and did we spend that surplus on a massive NO levvee system? Hell no. So stop pointing political fingers unless you want to aim 'em at both parties (in which case I might join you).
Just keep in mind that human nature is such that we don't make huge changes in our lives or our policies unless some kind of disaster strikes. Would the TSA have ever passed Congress if not for 9-11? Would the US have raced for the moon without Sputnik? Would the Dutch have built the Ostershelte (sp?) Project without the 1953 flood? Would the French have built the Maginot line without 1914? You know the answers.
As to how well the Feds are doing in the post disaster phase.....well, that's a different subject. But again, be aware that their tasks are complicated tremendously by the constitutional constraints imposed upon the State-Federal relationship. |
BS
You're making excuses for lack of Federal action based on states rights issues? Horrible.
The President of the United States is the most powerful man in the world. When **** hits the fan, bureaucracy rules and traditions be damned.
This is beyond the state of an emergency and emergency action needs to happen without all this red tape BS you're talking about.
If Bush can fly into Baghdad he can certainly get his ass on the ground when his country needs him the most. 
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