02-09-2005 20:57									#91
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So do we build surge protection for Miami, Charleston etc? Why is New Orleans so special?

We aren't undersea level. In SE Florida, we have have destroyed our natural defenses against hurricanes, dunes and mangroves, but even a massive storm surge would be over when the storm is gone. The survivors could walk out, if necessary.

BTW, The Prez has been especially responsive to our needs in Florida. Whether thtat's because his brother is our governor or his father lost his job in part due to the collosal fubar that was the FEMA reponse to Andrew I don't know. But they were Johnny on the spot here.

	02-09-2005 21:00									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Neither of which sit in a below-sea level bowl. It has always been acknowledged that NO was especially vulnerable. It's als especially important, given its location and status as port and oil refining hub.

If a 25ft surge hits Miami it will have the same effect. Miami is not exactly buily on top of a mountain and it is also an important seaport. Not to mention that the huge elderly population there tend to sit and try to ride out the hurricanes.

	02-09-2005 21:02									#93
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH BTW, in other interviews it looked as if Landrieux is simply not jumping on the 'blame the feds' bandwagon.

I do not solely blame the Feds. All levels of government are equally culpable for the post-storm disaster.

	02-09-2005 21:03									#94
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH If a 25ft surge hits Miami it will have the same effect. Miami is not exactly buily on top of a mountain and it is also an important seaport. Not to mention that the huge elderly population there tend to sit and try to ride out the hurricanes.

I had a lot of other post there you seem to have conveniently ignored, including:

quote: But yes, why not build it for those cities?

	02-09-2005 21:04									#95
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, but they are conservatives.

I suspect Blanco (?) is a DLC type 3rd way dem, but Id be surprised that Nagin is. Of course if you consider Slate a conservative magazine

	02-09-2005 21:05									#96
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH If a 25ft surge hits Miami it will have the same effect. Miami is not exactly buily on top of a mountain and it is also an important seaport. Not to mention that the huge elderly population there tend to sit and try to ride out the hurricanes.

We have barrier islands to protect us from the worst. Miami Beach would be destroyed by a storm surge, but Miami won't be. Far more worriesome is the fact that our building inspectors are on the take, and look aside when shoddy construction is being done, while construction workers get paid some of the lowest wages in the country and don't give a ****. Wind damage is far more likely to wreck us.

	02-09-2005 21:05									#97
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Every time I wake up, it seems that the diaster in New Orleans is getting worse. Now the city is on fire, and even President Bush is admitting that the Federal response in New Orleans is really bad.

	02-09-2005 21:06									#98
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If Michael Brown, at least, isn't shitcanned over this, then there truly will be no justice whatsoever.

	02-09-2005 21:09									#99
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So do we build surge protection for Miami, Charleston etc? Why is New Orleans so special?

Like everyone else said already, New Orleans is under sea level. And as we can see, that once it floods it is very hard to get the flood waters out. In other cities the strom surge would go away after the strom is gone.

	02-09-2005 21:16									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I had a lot of other post there you seem to have conveniently ignored, including:

Only cos you DanS'ed me.

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But yes, why not build it for those cities? Let me get this particilar meme straight, though--spending $25 billion per month on a war in Iraq is vital to our national interests, but spending substantially less than that to secure our own cities from disaster is impractical and not worth the government's efforts? Nice priorities.

I think that you could make an argument that if we can afford $25 billion per month on Iraq that we should have spent it on ourselves. That has never happened previously so blaming Bush for continuing the tradition of not doing so is pointless while singling New Orleans for special protection is unfair to the citizens of other large and important cities (and politically impossible IMO).

	02-09-2005 21:21									#101
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We have barrier islands to protect us from the worst. Miami Beach would be destroyed by a storm surge, but Miami won't be. Far more worriesome is the fact that our building inspectors are on the take, and look aside when shoddy construction is being done, while construction workers get paid some of the lowest wages in the country and don't give a ****. Wind damage is far more likely to wreck us.

Dont kid yourself. Although I couldnt find the mean elevation for Miami, I did find it for Florida - a whopping 100 ft. If you look at the devastation in Gulfport, Biloxi, Mobile you'll see what happened in towns whose mean elevation is considerably above that of Miami's. Sure the water would recede but that's when the damage is done to the undermined buildings. We've had some experience with it in the last couple of years.

	02-09-2005 21:59									#102
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Why did it really happen? Fencing and straightening of the Mississippi is a good place to start looking, as is the destruction of the wetlands for nice seafront properties.

The village I lived in Luxembourg got flooded a couple of timesin the mid 90's (nowhere near as bad but still). The response was to break down the barriers that held the river in a nice straight line, and the what they called "renaturalisation" of the river, including reed fields, islands in the river and letting the river meander more. Haven't had a flooding since. The build up of the surge on a straightened river has nowhere to go, in a naturally meandering river it will end up on designated flood plains.

	03-09-2005 01:00									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos You guys are impossible If you honestly think that there was any way to plan for this, and plan for this for every city in America you are stupid. And not just plan for this in every city in America, but also for earthquakes, tidal waves, meteor strikes, locaust swarms... Given the scale of this disaster, and that the vast majority of the effected ARE getting help, your critisisms are neither warranted or constructive. Obviously the hardest hit and the most difficult to help will be in the center of teh disaster, that would be the very definition of "center."

seems simple to me. You saw all those flooded school busses. They should have used the busses to get people out before the storm. Use the school bus drivers to drive the busses (pay them overtime of course). Yes there was a traffic jam. They should have opened up both sides of the freeway (not just the normal right side). This could have got the busses out and then they could have returned for another load. It wouldn't have been enough for everyone, but it would have helped.

	03-09-2005 01:02									#104
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Here's one of the evacuees' philosophy on the destruction of the city... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5090102305.html

Las Vegas is a more evil city. And we also have a worse school system. Nothing bad will ever happen to my city

	03-09-2005 01:02									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When the results of not doing so result in a major national catastrophe, then yes, it is. That's why a country exists in the first place. If not, then we'd all be independant states.

exactly. And esp. considering the hit to the national economy we are taking. It is a national problem.

	03-09-2005 01:05									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Here's a run down of what our leaders were doing yesterday, Sept. 1: -President Bush made the incomprehensible statement that nobody "expected the levees would break." Given that all the experts knew they could only withstand a Cat. 3 storm and were predicting for years that there would be levee failures if a stronger storm hit, I just wonder if by "nobody" he's just referring to the nobodies in his administration. Well, at least he had time to devote to the issue, instead of the previous two days, where he had shuttled around to staged events and photo ops over Social Security and such. -Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice played tennis in New York before attending a matinee performance of the musical Spamelot. She then spent several thousands of dollars shoe shopping on 5th Avenue. A fellow woman shopper who saw her shouted to her something to the effect of "you should be ashamed you're here while people are dying in our own country." Rice had her Secret Service agents remove the woman from the store. -FEMA director Michael Brown (who, interestingly enough, was fired from his previous gig as a lawyer for the International Arabian Horse Association Legal Department) was spinning furiously about how wonderful and prepared FEMA was for this. He then admitted to Paula Zahn on CNN that it wasn't until that very day FEMA realized there were 15,000 people also stranded at the New Orleans Convention Center. That's despite it having been designated an official emergency shelter before the storm. Then he had the wonderful compassion to say this on CNN: "Unfortunately, that's [the suffering] going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings. I don't make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans." Is this guy for real? -Louisiana Senator Mary Landrieux, in a stunning display of political insensitivity, went on Anderson Cooper and, when asked about the suffering of those still trapped, proceeded to rattle off a long litany of thank-yous to--get this--other politicians. Not rescue workers, not police or national guard, but politicians like Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr., Sen. Frist, Sen. Reid, etc. Cooper totally lost it on her over this, and it was one of the best smack-downs I've seen. -Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert said that we shouldn't rebuild New Orleans because it's expensive, impractical, etc. Nice timing there, Dennis. -Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld eased the minds of the nation by assuring us that the ultra-tacky country music hoedown with Clint Black in, erm, remembrance of September 11, 2001 would go on as plan. A big sigh of relief was heard all around the country. -Republican party chairman Ken Mehlman sent out an "urgent e-mail" to the GOP party demanding their help with the most crucial issue facing the nation today--repealing the estate tax. -Vice President Dick Cheney remained on vacation in Jackson, WY. Aides insisted it wasn't a vacation because he had had two briefings while there. Uh-huh. Ladies and gentlemen, our leadership just boggles the mind, don't it?

yeah I saw cooper lay the smack down on that politician. I loved it.

	03-09-2005 01:13									#107
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Dont kid yourself. Although I couldnt find the mean elevation for Miami, I did find it for Florida - a whopping 100 ft. If you look at the devastation in Gulfport, Biloxi, Mobile you'll see what happened in towns whose mean elevation is considerably above that of Miami's. Sure the water would recede but that's when the damage is done to the undermined buildings. We've had some experience with it in the last couple of years.

The damage to Mississippi is bad, but they can rebuild. The city won't be uninhabitable for months like New Orleans is.

	03-09-2005 01:15									#108
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quote: President Bush made the incomprehensible statement that nobody "expected the levees would break." Given that all the experts knew they could only withstand a Cat. 3 storm and were predicting for years that there would be levee failures if a stronger storm hit, I just wonder if by "nobody" he's just referring to the nobodies in his administration. Well, at least he had time to devote to the issue, instead of the previous two days, where he had shuttled around to staged events and photo ops over Social Security and such.

The storm surge and the winds didn't break the ocean side levies, which is what everyone expected. The levy that DID break was on the river side, the day after, from flood waters after the fact.

	03-09-2005 01:28									#109
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RE: Anderson Cooper's smackdown:
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/01...s-want-answers/

	03-09-2005 01:31									#110
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That is not much of a smackdown.

	03-09-2005 01:37									#111
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you had to be there. normally they are very respectful of politicians. Yes even Bush they treat very well.

	03-09-2005 01:37									#112
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To me, that is quite a smackdown, at least in comparasion to what the media usually does to politicos in America all the time, and especially during the aftermath of a disaster.

In fact, as the days go on, it seems that the media is getting more and more enraged about the entire situation. Their collective balls finally seem to be dropping and growing journalistic pubes. It's about goddamned time.

	03-09-2005 01:48									#113
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quote: In fact, as the days go on, it seems that the media is getting more and more enraged about the entire situation. Their collective balls finally seem to be dropping and growing journalistic pubes. It's about goddamned time.

As far as I can tell they just keep repeating themselves, each reporter trying to use the biggest words possible to describe what is going on (which is the same as yesterday).

	03-09-2005 02:25									#114
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It has crossed my mind the media has blown this out of proportion. They tend to overdramatize these events. It's all big ratings for them. They love it. I doubt New Orleans is as bad as everyone is saying. And you know how people overdramatize the hardships in their life. I doubt life in the superdome is that bad. I'm really tempted to go to New Orleans. I want to see it for one last time. But really the city isn't in that bad of shape. the tourist areas of town are in good shape. They were on higher ground. It was the slums that were hardist hit.

I'm actually glad the media is getting upset at the politicians. It shows they are humans after all. And they truelly care about humans in this money making time for them.

	03-09-2005 02:36									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer To me, that is quite a smackdown, at least in comparasion to what the media usually does to politicos in America all the time, and especially during the aftermath of a disaster. In fact, as the days go on, it seems that the media is getting more and more enraged about the entire situation. Their collective balls finally seem to be dropping and growing journalistic pubes. It's about goddamned time.

Hrmpf. I don't know what your local news had shown, but I guess that they are like our local news. They go mad when a disaster happens, but prior, they don't give a sh!t when locals warns that there may be danger - the real interesting story first appears when the disaster has happend, and that is all they care about.

	03-09-2005 03:10									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Dis It has crossed my mind the media has blown this out of proportion. They tend to overdramatize these events. It's all big ratings for them. They love it. I doubt New Orleans is as bad as everyone is saying. And you know how people overdramatize the hardships in their life. I doubt life in the superdome is that bad. I'm really tempted to go to New Orleans. I want to see it for one last time. But really the city isn't in that bad of shape. the tourist areas of town are in good shape. They were on higher ground. It was the slums that were hardist hit.

you're kidding, right?

	03-09-2005 03:13									#117
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Somehow I don't believe this claim:

quote: -Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice played tennis in New York before attending a matinee performance of the musical Spamelot. She then spent several thousands of dollars shoe shopping on 5th Avenue. A fellow woman shopper who saw her shouted to her something to the effect of "you should be ashamed you're here while people are dying in our own country." Rice had her Secret Service agents remove the woman from the store.

If you include the cost of the security staff guarding her, I would believe it, but not for the shoes alone

	03-09-2005 03:21									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Dis It has crossed my mind the media has blown this out of proportion. They tend to overdramatize these events. It's all big ratings for them. They love it. I doubt New Orleans is as bad as everyone is saying. And you know how people overdramatize the hardships in their life. I doubt life in the superdome is that bad. I'm really tempted to go to New Orleans. I want to see it for one last time. But really the city isn't in that bad of shape. the tourist areas of town are in good shape. They were on higher ground. It was the slums that were hardist hit. I'm actually glad the media is getting upset at the politicians. It shows they are humans after all. And they truelly care about humans in this money making time for them.

Here is an update from the blogger linked to from the original Katrina news thread wrote before he went totally offline last night. He seems to be quite well off, compared to 1000's of others. At least his feet are dry and he has water and booze to drink. :

quote: As further example of how chaotic the situation is down here, I lost cellular service all day, but yet now I have landlines and internet. Cell also came back 20 minutes ago. Good thing. I didn't realize how much that little piece of communicating was and is propping me up. Oh yeah, and I can now txt at 7 wpm. Picture to left is a major road. Nothing. No traffic. Not a single car. Flooding in Jeff Parish is straight ahead on the other side of those overpasses in the background. Here's my status... siphoned 10 gallons of gas out of a neighbors car. This puts me in a pretty secure situation regarding electricity, that is I have two more days with it. As far as food, I am fine - at least a week or longer. The water situation is the most positive. I retrieved another big kentwood jug today and I have water pressure out of the taps - though it is not drinkable. I have plenty of alcohol - really the only way to get to sleep, even though you are exhausted. A neighbor gave me like 6 bottles of booze. lol. I am heavily armed. 12 gauge shotgun, 38 special on hip, and I was also gifted an 9mm pistol from a neighbor today. Speaking of guns... Things are starting to break down now in Jefferson Parish. Refugees are starting to stream in and so is the looting. As per previous post, Arron Broussard, Jeff Parish President, has IN FACT declared himself dictator. He is posting JP Deputies at the borders with New Orleans and is sealing them off, by force if necessary. Fantastic quotes from him on the radio all directed at Bush. Broussard is completely serious. We desparately need the military. Citizens who stayed behind and are cleaning up their neighborhoods are now carrying weapons full time. Night is especially disturbing. Last night saw heard gunshots then emergency flares shot up into the sky near the river by Winn Dixie. As far as I know, it was not investigated or were the people assisted. My days are spent working with the few neighbors that we have cleaning up River Ridge. We have been lucky so far. We specifically opted to leave all but one entrance into the neighborhood closed by trees, power poles, etc. to act as a natural fortification. Today, in the first evidence that the Parish Government exists, a tractor came through and opened up every road. Now we actually feel less secure. Seriously, that has been the FIRST Jeff Parish vehicle we have seen. Harahan cops are everywhere in their town (we but up against them.) Hundreds of helicopters though... hundreds. All we hear are generators and helos. More later, I'm going to dinner at neighbors house. I may rant when I get back under the influence of wine. Cheers and again thanks to all the well wishers. Please call 1-800-HELP-NOW and donate money to help us. Please and thanks.

http://gulfsails.blogspot.com/2005/...d-in-color.html

	03-09-2005 04:38									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Dis It has crossed my mind the media has blown this out of proportion. They tend to overdramatize these events. It's all big ratings for them. They love it. I doubt New Orleans is as bad as everyone is saying. And you know how people overdramatize the hardships in their life. I doubt life in the superdome is that bad. I'm really tempted to go to New Orleans. I want to see it for one last time. But really the city isn't in that bad of shape. the tourist areas of town are in good shape. They were on higher ground. It was the slums that were hardist hit. I'm actually glad the media is getting upset at the politicians. It shows they are humans after all. And they truelly care about humans in this money making time for them.

Ramblings again.

	03-09-2005 05:47									#120
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Did anyone just see Kanye West on the NBC telethon? He was with Mike Meyers. He was shaking, giving rambling, racially charged speech, then blurted out "George Bush doesn't care about black people!" NBC hurriedly cut off to some other guy. Mike Meyers looked incredibly uncomfortable. One of the most hillarious things I have ever seen on live t.v.