02-09-2005 05:54									#1
	So how did the destruction of New Orleans happen? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes I know, there was this big storm...

What I am getting at is what was the chain of events that got us to where we are now?

I'll start - there was this big storm...

Last year.

Now after the near miss from cat 4 hurricane Ivan last year the nice men who look after the levees thought it would be a good idea to upgrade them from cat 3 protection.

But, the men in the big city far away wouldn't let them because they needed all the money they could find saving a country a very long way away from evil.

To do this they needed lots and lots of brave men who are supposed to look after their own country but are sometimes needed to go to far off places...

Now New Orleans was a very big port in all the land and that pesky Mississippi river had to be controlled from flooding and changing its route, so after the floods of 1927 the well meaning inhabitants encased it in levees but without thinking about the ecology of the Louisiana wetlands they made no provision for the river to feed the delta with fresh water and sediment and those lovely wetlands that would have helped absorb the force of Katrina have been rapidly eroding ever since...

There was this big storm...

Now New Orleans is underwater, the entire population displaced and anarchy is on the streets...

So, who is to blame for the destruction of New Orleans, because from where I am the causes appear to be almost entirely man made...

Discuss.

	02-09-2005 05:58									#2
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so in summary, it's all bush's fault

	02-09-2005 05:58									#3
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I liked your first answer better.

Big storm.

Big waves.

New Orleans = at or below sea level to begin with and built on the Bayou.

Result = Big Big Bad.
(and throwing more money at it would not, I don't believe, have made much difference)



-=Vel=-

	02-09-2005 06:01									#4
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So how is Candle'Bre coming, Vel?

	02-09-2005 06:02									#5
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney so in summary, it's all bush's fault

Only partly.

	02-09-2005 06:04									#6
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Hiyas Walker!

It's going really well! Our paid Code Master started on August 1st, and per the latest report, should have our first breakthrough this weekend/next week sometime....I'm counting down the hours!

And in the meantime, I've been writing like a Demon (rather like the one pictured in my Avatar, actually) in preparation!

-=Vel=-

	02-09-2005 06:09									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I liked your first answer better. Big storm. Big waves. New Orleans = at or below sea level to begin with and built on the Bayou. Result = Big Big Bad. (and throwing more money at it would not, I don't believe, have made much difference) -=Vel=-

As I've pointed out in another thread:

FEMA has been predicting this -- big storm + infrastructure failure -- since at least 2001 (that is, for the whole of the Bush administration).

Every year since then, the Administration has given the agencies responsible for flood control in NO (Army Corps of Engineers and others) far less money than they have asked for (on average, 44% less) to deal with the problem.

In 2004, in particular, the Army Corps of Engineers asked for funding to deal with the reinforcement of the Lake Ponchatrain levees; the administration gave them a mere 20% of what they asked for.

Meanwhile, the Administration continues to crow about cutting taxes, and has no trouble borrowing money to finance its Iraq quagmire.

So, yeah, throwing money at the problem might not have fixed it -- but don't you wish we had at least tried?

	02-09-2005 06:11									#8
	Re: So how did the destruction of New Orleans happen? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Yes I know, there was this big storm... What I am getting at is what was the chain of events that got us to where we are now?

Us? We? As if your apart of it all in some way.

	02-09-2005 06:12									#9
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The destruction of New Orleans has many fathers going back many decades.

	02-09-2005 06:13									#10
	Re: Re: So how did the destruction of New Orleans happen? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Us? We? As if your apart of it all in some way.

Zoinks! he's a furriner!

	02-09-2005 06:13									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The destruction of New Orleans has many fathers going back many decades.

	02-09-2005 06:14									#12
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There's already a thread for this.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=138089

	02-09-2005 06:14									#13
	Re: Re: Re: So how did the destruction of New Orleans happen? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Zoinks! he's a furriner!

Just a troll

	02-09-2005 06:16									#14
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Indeed, we should probably ask to which destruction of New Orleans that MOBIUS refers? As I understand, it's had several.

	02-09-2005 06:17									#15
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Lossa people will prolly disagree with me here, but you asked my opinion, so I'll give it.

As I see it, it's like this:

At the present time, and given technologies available today, the following things are true:

* We cannot, for all our cleverness, make an entire city safe enough to protect it from a massive earthquake. Buildings on springs, all the latest doo dads combined...it's still not enough. Pipes will break, lines will rupture, roads and bridges will collapse, AND some of our spiffy buildings on springs will still fall (or could). There's no building technology on the planet that I'm aware of that can stand up to a max-the-Richter-scale-out quake. Not even Bucky Fuller's Geodesic Domes can do that on account of the foundation likely being damaged.

* Likewise, when you've got a city as big as New Orleans, *at or below sea level*, sitting on what amounts to a gigantic swamp....there's nothing our current technology can do. Sure, we could *maybe* have strengthened the levys to withstand a cat 4 storm, but a cat 5? Unlikely.

And when you're at or below sea level, you're at or below sea level. When that 30 foot swell hits, you're toast, and all the bells and whistles our technology has to offer won't amount to much in terms of stopping it.

Short of draining the bayou, tearing down new orleans, dumping a few gazillion gazillion tons of topsoil down and rebuilding the city on a hill, I'm not sure we coulda made it better.

-=Vel=-

	02-09-2005 06:20									#16
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quote: Result = Big Big Bad. (and throwing more money at it would not, I don't believe, have made much difference)

Throwing money at problems always helps. With enough money they probably could've just got it all in pennies and used the huge mountains of pennies to reinforce the levees.

	02-09-2005 06:22									#17
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-=Vel=-

	02-09-2005 06:50									#18
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One other aspect of this question has only begun to be discussed: the decision to place FEMA under the Department of Homeland Security. DHS has got to be the most completely fubarred entity in the US Government -- and I say that knowing how very stiff the competition is for that title. The argument is beginning to emerge, in the Washington Post among other places, that giving FEMA to DHS may have contributed to this crisis because (1) DHS had FEMA prioritize terrorist attack scenarios, at the expense of planning for more likely (and predictable) natural catastrophies, and besides (2) DHS screws up everything it touches.

So there's another father for ya.

	02-09-2005 06:51									#19
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Physical damage can at best be mitigated.

Anarchy on the other hand is inexcusable.

	02-09-2005 07:25									#20
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I agree that a lot of the destruction in New Orleans is man made. I just hope we learn from this diaster.

	02-09-2005 07:51									#21
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If, as someone said, good luck would save them, then conversely, one would have to assume it was bad luck that didin't.

	02-09-2005 08:08									#22
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quote: So, yeah, throwing money at the problem might not have fixed it -- but don't you wish we had at least tried?

Thanks for the blank check for Iraq.

I think the point here is the opposite Rufus, that givin the tens of billions poorted into the NO levies, it accomplished nothing. There is absolutely no reason what so ever to believe more money would have done anything but created a larger broken levy.

	02-09-2005 09:00									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Thanks for the blank check for Iraq. I think the point here is the opposite Rufus, that givin the tens of billions poorted into the NO levies, it accomplished nothing. There is absolutely no reason what so ever to believe more money would have done anything but created a larger broken levy.

That's an absurd argument. USACE indiated that the levees needed shoring up, adn indicated what it would cost. The Administration gave them 20% of that. How does that prove that the original amount of money wouldn't have solved the problem?

Currently I need $5000 to repoint my chimney. If I only have $1000, and thus can't repoint it properly, and the chimney subsequently collapses, does that prove that the $5000 repointing job wouldn't have accomplished anything?

	02-09-2005 09:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly One other aspect of this question has only begun to be discussed: the decision to place FEMA under the Department of Homeland Security. DHS has got to be the most completely fubarred entity in the US Government -- and I say that knowing how very stiff the competition is for that title. The argument is beginning to emerge, in the Washington Post among other places, that giving FEMA to DHS may have contributed to this crisis because (1) DHS had FEMA prioritize terrorist attack scenarios, at the expense of planning for more likely (and predictable) natural catastrophies, and besides (2) DHS screws up everything it touches. So there's another father for ya.

The response to this tragedy so far from the Federal government has been horrible and outrageous.

Those people should have been evactuated days ago.

Then Bush gets on tv and says, "the private sector must do their part."

HELLO??? This isn't the time to advance your privatization dream when people need help NOW!!!!!!!

	02-09-2005 09:21									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The response to this tragedy so far from the Federal government has been horrible and outrageous. Those people should have been evactuated days ago. Then Bush gets on tv and says, "the private sector must do their part." HELLO??? This isn't the time to advance your privatization dream when people need help NOW!!!!!!!

I think you missed the point when he said, "the private sector must do their part." I think it was to get as many people as possible to give money and whatever else is need to help the people in need. It was not to advance the pricatization dream. I do believe their are mistakes being made. The problem is not the money, the Senate just approved a 10.5 billion dollar aid package for the victoms. The problem is first their is total lawessness in New Orleans. As a result aid workers and FEMA dont want to go into the area when their are gangs of thugs that are armed shooting at them and ect. Also their is no communication in the area, so no one on the ground knows what in the world is going on.

Just now the National Guard has finally started to arive into the City with 3000 troops with more on the way. Once they can gain controll again, it will be much easier to evacute the city of the remaining people there.

	02-09-2005 09:28									#26
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You have far more trust in his altruistic motives than I do.

On top of that, alot of the lawlessness can be blamed on the lack of response at the Federal level. People are desparate and doing desparate things, they need supplies and they needed them days ago. They needed law and order established days ago.


But this doesn't surprise me given the track record of incompetence with this Administration.

Bush isn't even in the damn area. A true leader would have gone there and demanded whatever it takes to save those people.


Why is it that CNN can stand there and film people dying right in front of the camera, but the most powerful and richest government on the face of the earth is taking its time to save these people?????

Last edited by Ted Striker on 02-09-2005 at 09:35

	02-09-2005 09:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Why is it that CNN can stand there and film people dying right in front of the camera, but the most powerful and richest government on the face of the earth is taking its time to save these people?????

It always amazes me that big media corporations can get cameras in front of these people, and not help them in the process.

I guess that would ruin the story or something.

	02-09-2005 09:37									#28
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There is no way in the world that FEMA is going to be privatized. I think that diasters like this bring out the best in people most of the time any ways.

	02-09-2005 09:39									#29
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We already have thousands of mercenaries running around Iraq, I wouldn't count on anything being safe.

	02-09-2005 09:40									#30
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The Army Corps of Engineer leader recently made a statement saying the project wouldn't have saved NO.