03-09-2005 15:54									#1
	The US Army Needs a Peacekeeping School Increase Your PM Length

Okay, let me preface this first of all by saying that the best way to avoid silly operations like Vietnam, Somalia, and Iraq is to just not get involved in them in the first place. However, that's a side discussion we've had for the past 2 years.

It's clear to me, that regardless of what kind of leadership is in Washington, that the USA's worldwide involvement and interventionalism is not going to go away anytime soon. If we actually had our heads out of our asses and did something like stopping genocides in Rwanda and Sudan, perhaps there will be times when our intervention is used for the greater good. But it seems force is going to be deployed for good and for not so good reasons. If you're going to deploy it, you need to give yourself the best possible chance for success.

Anyway, the point is that, the US is best military when it comes to set pieced battles, nobody else stand a chance, not even the Finns. We have the best hardware and if worse comes to worse, we can just outgun everyone.

The problem is that we are the absolute worst at peacekeeping efforts. Well duh Ted, that's obvious. I've wondered why we have Marines in Iraq doing peacekeeping duty. They are not cut out for the job. You use the Marines to blow stuff up and then the Army comes in afterwards to stabilize the situation. The Marines are good at blowing stuff up, but the same no holds barred skillset doesn't work to well when it comes to the complexities of a peacekeeping situation which takes more political savvy than brute force. Escalation is often a losing proposition for everyone involved.

It's often been mentioned that British are good peacekeepers because they are more skilled at getting to know their territory and people instead of the trigger happy "zero tolerance" policy that the Americans use.

Anyway, the US Army needs to establish a peacekeeping school. We've learned battlefield tactics and how to buy expensive weaponry, now it's time to take a strong effort and establish a peacekeeping curriculum for the Officer Corps, and a permanent administrative unit the keep the knowledge base of these skills alive and current, ready to be deployed when necessary.

This probably sounds like adding more to the apparatus of Empire, and in many ways it is, but it's something our country needs to address since we are the sole remaining superpower for now.

This "our way or the highway" crap has to end because we're not going to be able to get away with it for too much longer.

	03-09-2005 15:58									#2
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quote: The US Army Needs a Peacekeeping School

I was pissed when they shut down the old one.

	03-09-2005 15:59									#3
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Where was it?

	03-09-2005 16:02									#4
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Pennsylvania

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...,1,533388.story

	03-09-2005 16:04									#5
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So, why do you have Marines in here, Finland, in our peacekeeping school right now, learning the trade and then passing it on once back in the US?

So why did they decide to fudge the current model, and basically come to us? I like that they are humble to knwo they can learn from others as well, to be better in the future with the best hardware and to acknwoledge there is information out there and things to be learned, even still.

I say THAT attitude makes the US military best. Along with the hardware and stuff, which in my eyes seems like not the deciding factor, relying on it makes one weak and that's the biggest reason for future failures in combat field for some armies. However, it's not a weakness when you get the other factors working together, that is the most important even today, the men. That means people need to be humble, people need to keep their eyes and ears open, learn the trade and study, learn other ways and determine what is the best way of doing X and Y in situation Z and F, in E and R conditions with W and P people.

But I welcome your overweight marines into our lands and hope they have a good time. They can buy can of pringles and eat the mcdonalds in here too so it won't be a culture shock.

BEcause WE'RE #1!!!

	03-09-2005 16:07									#6
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That's a really good article, and it gives alot of insight into the mindset of our military. Flat out, the military does not like doing peacekeeping duties.

Bruce Willis' character in the Siege makes this point, when he says something like, "the military is a broadsword, not a scapel," when he talks about deploying the Army into New York City to restore order and catch the terrorist. Willis' character (a general) predicts the miltary will harm the city more than it will help, and says the miltary is the wrong tool for the job.

Interesting quotes:

quote: Since its creation in 1993 at the Army War College, the Peacekeeping Institute has struggled against a military culture that sees itself as a war-fighting machine that should leave peacekeeping to others. Out of a $81 billion annual Army budget, the Peacekeeping Institute ran on $200,000 a year.

	03-09-2005 16:11									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So, why do you have Marines in here, Finland, in our peacekeeping school right now, learning the trade and then passing it on once back in the US? So why did they decide to fudge the current model, and basically come to us? I like that they are humble to knwo they can learn from others as well, to be better in the future with the best hardware and to acknwoledge there is information out there and things to be learned, even still. I say THAT attitude makes the US military best. Along with the hardware and stuff, which in my eyes seems like not the deciding factor, relying on it makes one weak and that's the biggest reason for future failures in combat field for some armies. However, it's not a weakness when you get the other factors working together, that is the most important even today, the men. That means people need to be humble, people need to keep their eyes and ears open, learn the trade and study, learn other ways and determine what is the best way of doing X and Y in situation Z and F, in E and R conditions with W and P people. But I welcome your overweight marines into our lands and hope they have a good time. They can buy can of pringles and eat the mcdonalds in here too so it won't be a culture shock. BEcause WE'RE #1!!!

Interesting, glad to see the Finns doing some schooling.

On a side note, I've never met an overweight active duty Marine, almost all of them look like bodybuilders, it's kinda scary how good of shape they are in.

I'm sure Dis and all the other Navy guys will have a different opinion though.

	03-09-2005 16:12									#8
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One radical idea I had was to create a separate unit, sortof a cross-breed of National Guard/Border Guard/Military Police, that were specialized in peacekeeping.

But of course that's more money, etc.

Creating a group of advisors sounds like a tough sell because the other units would culturally reject them and it would be hard to integrate them. "Oh it's the peace crew sissies (rolleyes)"

	03-09-2005 16:14									#9
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It would probably be better to just have a division or two of the Army specialize in peacekeeping duties.

	03-09-2005 16:15									#10
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I DanSed you.

	03-09-2005 16:32									#11
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Exactly. Bodybuilder types as soldiers? Like I said, overweight.

Look at how the FFL guys look. THAT is the body type you want for soldiers. They are perfect. They also all look the same, so it must be their schooling that makes them, mean lean.. you know the rest.

Buff soldier is almost worse than little fat soldier. That is, in a real combat and war. Not saying they won't do good. Just saying, as far as body types goes, that's nto the optimal, far from it.

And yes, as far as peacekeeping abilities goes, we are actually one of the biggest contributors in the world and one of the most experienced AND we have a great track record, and are usually more trusted in zones amongst the locals and can actually get some **** done. Not saying others can't do their job, just saying they have been able to do it good in all scenarios.

But you have to understand, that in here it's actually very difficult to get into the peacekeeping unit. Everyone wants to go there. IT's the only opportunity to get out of Finland in uniform basically. The only military adventure for us. So everyone wants to go, thus they get to select from wide base.

Most of them have done several rotations. You need a special skill to get in. Pumping gas is not a special skill. You need to be a real professional in what you do in your civilian life, and that's what you are going to do there in the location. And everyone has served in the military prior, and there are no young hot shots, 18, fresh out of school. In order for new young guys to go in, they are all part of rapid deployment forces. So there's guys in their 30s, and closing 30 mostly I'd suppose. With life experience. With head on their shoulders. Who are all privilidged to have been chosen to the task at hand. And even then they go through training in the training center the marines are now in. So it's a combination of experience and totally different approach all together. And they have shown success during the years all the time.

Like I once said, I tried to get in too, I wanted to go to Eritrea myself, but since I was caught smoking the pot when I was 16, I have 0 chances. I don't have record for it, paid a small fine and learned the lesson, but that's how tough it is to get in sometimes. My offense is like who gives a crap anymore. But they do give, and it's a case of representing your country in there. They take it seriously. We can't afford ****ing up only missions we have.

	03-09-2005 17:41									#12
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Let's just call it what it is: the Colonization school. I know that it is hard for Americans to accept the fact that right now, they are COLONIZING Iraq, with the US being a former colony. By colonizing I mean using military force to conquer a country and then shape it in such a way - a process in which the conquered state has no real influence and which is legitimized solely by using military force - so that it can fulfill a certain strategic or economic purpose for the victor.

Mind you, I entirely support this idea. Only I am afraid that the Americans don't fully understand the dark and sinister nature of colonization - and that this will be reflected in the way 'peacekeeping' is teached at such a school.

Colonizing a country, be it to turn it into a cheap supplier of raw matrials or to change its government into a democracy and turn it's administration into a reliable ally, involves subjecting a people to your will. The art of subjecting peoples should not be taught using idealistic notions of the right to freedom of all peoples and the necessity of saving innocent peoples from their human rights-violating dictators. Instead it should be taught using the teachings of great political philosophers like Macchiavelli. The end justifies the means. And more important: only if you reach your end will the rest of the world accept its righteousness. If the Americans succeed in turning Iraq into a stable democracy and reliable ally of the West in the Middle-East, the horrors of the Abu Ghraib prison will be quikly forgotten and forgiven.

	03-09-2005 17:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Heerscher Let's just call it what it is: the Colonization school. I know that it is hard for Americans to accept the fact that right now, they are COLONIZING Iraq, with the US being a former colony. By colonizing I mean using military force to conquer a country and then shape it in such a way - a process in which the conquered state has no real influence and which is legitimized solely by using military force - so that it can fulfill a certain strategic or economic purpose for the victor.

I agreed with you to this point. Peace keeping is not on the agenda in Irag. Peace keeping (we USED to do a lot of it) is really about keeping two groups who are inclined to fight, apart. Clearly, that's not what's going on over there.

	03-09-2005 20:30									#14
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Told you so 30 months ago, Ted, but you were too much of a chickenhawk back then. Good to see you leave the dark side

	03-09-2005 20:58									#15
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As the usual, I agree with Ted - while I have the upmost respect for the American military, there are times where its performance make me wince.

	04-09-2005 04:04									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Heerscher Let's just call it what it is: the Colonization school. I know that it is hard for Americans to accept the fact that right now, they are COLONIZING Iraq, with the US being a former colony. By colonizing I mean using military force to conquer a country and then shape it in such a way - a process in which the conquered state has no real influence and which is legitimized solely by using military force - so that it can fulfill a certain strategic or economic purpose for the victor. Mind you, I entirely support this idea. Only I am afraid that the Americans don't fully understand the dark and sinister nature of colonization - and that this will be reflected in the way 'peacekeeping' is teached at such a school. Colonizing a country, be it to turn it into a cheap supplier of raw matrials or to change its government into a democracy and turn it's administration into a reliable ally, involves subjecting a people to your will. The art of subjecting peoples should not be taught using idealistic notions of the right to freedom of all peoples and the necessity of saving innocent peoples from their human rights-violating dictators. Instead it should be taught using the teachings of great political philosophers like Macchiavelli. The end justifies the means. And more important: only if you reach your end will the rest of the world accept its righteousness. If the Americans succeed in turning Iraq into a stable democracy and reliable ally of the West in the Middle-East, the horrors of the Abu Ghraib prison will be quikly forgotten and forgiven.

No disagreement here.

Good post.

	04-09-2005 04:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Told you so 30 months ago, Ted, but you were too much of a chickenhawk back then. Good to see you leave the dark side

I never would have thought in my worst dreams that an American Administration could be this evil and this incompetent at the same time.

It really has broken my heart.

I love this country and it has been taken for a ride, and I'm afraid the worst is not over.

	04-09-2005 04:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I never would have thought in my worst dreams that an American Administration could be this evil and this incompetent at the same time.

You were young and naive.

	04-09-2005 04:27									#19
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The military doesn't want to have this capability, because they would then be expected to use it. I am sympathetic to that line of thinking.

	04-09-2005 04:28									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker No disagreement here. Good post.

So it's all worth it if Bush gets his way in the end?

	04-09-2005 04:43									#21
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Uh, no.

	04-09-2005 04:44									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The military doesn't want to have this capability, because they would then be expected to use it. I am sympathetic to that line of thinking.

They are already having their capabilities MISused, "because they can," with regards to their other extraordinary abilities.

They are already expected to use this capability whether they want to or not, they just use it from their exisiting units that are neither designed nor trained for the purpose.

	04-09-2005 04:50									#23
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quote: They are already having their capabilities MISused, "because they can," with regards to their other extraordinary abilities. They are already expected to use this capability whether they want to or not, they just use it from their exisiting units that are neither designed nor trained for the purpose.

So let me get this straight. You want the military to have more capabilities that can be misused by the president?

	04-09-2005 05:12									#24
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I want the military to have the best tools to do the job they are asked to do.

	04-09-2005 05:16									#25
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This was part of Heerscher's post as well:

quote: The end justifies the means. And more important: only if you reach your end will the rest of the world accept its righteousness. If the Americans succeed in turning Iraq into a stable democracy and reliable ally of the West in the Middle-East, the horrors of the Abu Ghraib prison will be quikly forgotten and forgiven.

I can't see you agreeing with this, Ted.

	04-09-2005 05:27									#26
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My post is in reference to more than just Iraq.

Regarding Iraq specifically, a horror like Abu Gharib is a good example of why a peacekeeping school is need to avoid nightmares like that in the first place.

The first line though I started things out in the thread was:

quote: Okay, let me preface this first of all by saying that the best way to avoid silly operations like Vietnam, Somalia, and Iraq is to just not get involved in them in the first place. However, that's a side discussion we've had for the past 2 years.

	04-09-2005 14:56									#27
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techumseh:

What I mean by that is, that in international politics basically 'might is right'. So the only way for the US to turn this whole mess in Iraq into something positive and worthwile is by reaching their current objectives for Iraq, which I identify as

1) turning Iraq into a stable democracy and example for the region
2) turning Iraq into a reliable political and military ally

I have always considered these goals dangerously overambitious. However, the US has incredible power and resources, so at least in theory it should be possible.

What I am afraid of however, is that the US does not understand that to reach this goal they need perseverance and an attitude that doesn't eschew the use of questionable but effective methods (and no, I don't consider 'Abu Ghraib' and 'Guantanamo' effective methods: to much exposure). In other words: the attitude of the 19th centery European nations that colonized huge parts of the world. I don't mean that the US should colonize this earth, only that the US should analyze and adopt the European methods and use them to their advantage in Iraq.

	04-09-2005 15:01									#28
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School of the Americas

	04-09-2005 15:05									#29
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Heerscher makes an interesting argument

	04-09-2005 15:13									#30
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Only if you think reprisal shootings, bulldozing neighbourhoods, concentration camps and some genocide added in for good measure would show Iraqis who's the boos. I don't think so.

While these tactics undoubtly are effective, you can't just do a little of them, you have to sink in deep - far deeper than US is ready to do, or anyone in the modern world for that matter.