08-09-2005 23:04									#1
	I think Martin's figured out how to make the Americans sit up and take notice Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://www.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/09...a.ap/index.html

quote: U.S. watches as Hu heads to Canada Thursday, September 8, 2005; Posted: 11:30 a.m. EDT (15:30 GMT) TORONTO, Ontario (AP) -- Chinese President Hu Jintao visits Canada this week, at a time when Beijing is boosting investments in Canadian oil and natural resources, and Washington and Ottawa continue to snipe over lumber tariffs. Hu's trip to Canada is his first state visit there, celebrating 35 years of diplomatic ties and rapidly expanding trade and energy agreements with Canada. China is Canada's second-largest trading partner, after the United States, and Ottawa and Beijing conducted some $30 billion worth of trade last year. With the world's fastest growing economy and rapid urbanization, the Chinese are hungry for more oil and natural resources -- and Canada has those, in abundance. Washington will closely eye the official visit, which includes meetings with Prime Minister Paul Martin and federal, provincial and business leaders in Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. Hu was supposed to meet President Bush at the White House next week, but postponed the visit after Hurricane Katrina ravaged the Gulf Coast. The United States relies on Canada for some 17 percent of its oil and energy and is well aware that China is boosting investments in Canadian oil and natural resources. At the same time, Washington and Ottawa, the world's largest trading partners, continue to snipe over lumber tariffs and question each other's long-term defense policies. "What I worry about is that the United States is making it easy for China; that in one way or another the United States is screwing up in its relationship with Canada," said Richard C. Bush, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. "And that makes it very easy for Hu Jintao to walk in and say, 'Hi, I'm from China and we want to be your friend. And by the way, I want to buy your oil and your minerals and let's not worry about your neighbor next door. We've both got problems with them, so let's talk.''' Vice President Dick Cheney's national energy policy report in 2001 noted the importance of Canada's oil sands to U.S. energy security. But while Americans blocked a bid by China to buy Unocal Corp., claiming it could threaten U.S. national security, Canadians support potential oil deals with China. The state-controlled China National Petroleum Corp. announced last month it would pay $4.2 billion for Canada-based PetroKazakhstan Inc. In April, CNOOC bought nearly 17 percent of Calgary-based MEG Energy Corp. Hu heads to Mexico on Sunday. He intends to meet with President Bush on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly in New York next week before returning to Vancouver on September 16 for two days of meetings. Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

	08-09-2005 23:15									#2
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One good reason to care less and less whether America sits down and take notices or not.

	08-09-2005 23:23									#3
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I can just see the conversation Bush must have had with his people. A perfect Abbott and Costello routine.

WH Staffer: MR. President! Hu's going to Canada!

Bush: I don't know. Who?

	08-09-2005 23:34									#4
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i guess strong-arm undiplomatic diplomacy has its downfalls after all?

	08-09-2005 23:34									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I can just see the conversation Bush must have had with his people. A perfect Abbott and Costello routine. WH Staffer: MR. President! Hu's going to Canada! Bush: I don't know. Who?

Probably more like:

WH Staffer: MR. President! Hu's going to Canada!

Bush: Who gives a ****?

	08-09-2005 23:37									#6
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor i guess strong-arm undiplomatic diplomacy has its downfalls after all?

If it does, I'm not seeing it. Why, look at the remarkable strides we've made with North Korea!

	08-09-2005 23:40									#7
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...and Canadians don't say boo about their resources being nationalised by a foreign government....

	08-09-2005 23:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil ...and Canadians don't say boo about their resources being nationalised by a foreign government....

Are you talking about PetroKazakhstan

	08-09-2005 23:45									#9
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Did you read the article? First paragraph would do.

The Chinese gov has expressed interest in many Canadian resource companies and just purchased a major mining co in the past couple years.

	08-09-2005 23:48									#10
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How are our resources being "nationalised"?

They're being bought at a fair market price.

More than fair, from what I can tell...

	08-09-2005 23:52									#11
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse How are our resources being "nationalised"?

B/c they are being bought by a government - not a private company.

quote: They're being bought at a fair market price.

Will the Chinese gov operate under capitalist market conditions in regards to these resources in the future?

quote: More than fair, from what I can tell...

An opinion. I've attached an article from the favorite rag of Canadian lefties....

quote: Wednesday, October 06 2004 @ 03:43 PM MDT Noranda and Chinese government ownership of Canada Contributed by: Anonymous Toronto Star Editorial (Oct 5): China's disquieting bid for Noranda From the article: As China opens to the world, its surging economy is beginning to include investment abroad. China now owns $33 billion (U.S.) worth of foreign properties, excluding Hong Kong, Taiwan and Macao. That grew by $3 billion last year. While that is a modest portfolio by global standards, China's state managers are looking to buy more. And their eyes are now on Canada's own Noranda Inc. China Minmetals Corp., a state-owned conglomerate, is negotiating to buy Noranda from Brascan Corp. and other shareholders for $7 billion. It would be Beijing's largest foreign takeover, dwarfing its entire direct investment in Canada of $400 million last year, and of our $540 million in China. The deal will give Beijing control of a venerable Canadian mining firm, 15,000 jobs worldwide and strategically vital deposits of zinc, nickel, copper and other minerals. Noranda also controls Falconbridge Ltd. This is a purchase which Prime Minister Paul Martin's government must scrutinize closely. That's because while a Minmetals takeover might be good for Noranda and its shareholders from a strict business point of view, the deal has much broader political and policy implications. Foreign acquisitions are one aspect of China's drive to become a global political, economic and military superpower. Yet China remains essentially a one-party state, dominated by a tiny Communist party elite. Unlike other multinational corporations, Minmetals does not answer to shareholders, in many countries. It answers directly to the government. That must be a concern, and not just for business reasons. The Beijing leadership uses whatever leverage it has to stifle criticism of China at the United Nations or elsewhere on topics ranging from Beijing's aversion to democracy to its rough handling of the Tiananmen Square protesters, to its suppression of Falun Gong, its occupation of Tibet, and relations with Hong Kong and Taiwan... ...Given the sheer scope of the Minmetals/Noranda deal, its trendsetting nature and the questions it raises, Ottawa should study this proposed acquisition carefully. Canadians must be assured it will not compromise our sovereignty. And Parliament must hold the government to account. See also: Canada to check China rights record in Noranda bid From the article: "OTTAWA, Oct 6 (Reuters) - Canada will examine China's human rights record as state-owned China Minmetals Corp. gets set to buy Noranda Inc. (NRD.TO: Quote, Profile, Research) , a Canadian cabinet minister who has a big say in approving the deal said on Wednesday. Canada's biggest mining firm by sales announced last month it was in exclusive talks with Minmetals to sell 100 percent of the copper, nickel and zinc miner to the Chinese conglomerate for about $5 billion. Critics have urged a halt to the deal, citing China's human rights record." And: Noranda's Chinese suitor cited in forced labour case From the article: "OTTAWA - The state-owned Chinese firm involved in the $7-billion-plus negotiations to buy Noranda Inc., Canada's largest mining firm, was accused during U.S. congressional hearings and a civil court case during the 1990s of profiting from forced labour in China's prisons."

	08-09-2005 23:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Did you read the article? First paragraph would do. The Chinese gov has expressed interest in many Canadian resource companies and just purchased a major mining co in the past couple years.

Second paragraph from last would do too. China just bought PetroKazakhstan, a Calgary based oil company - and the obvious trigger for the article - but not a company that owns resources in Canada IIUC. Unless there's a Kazakhstan region in Canada which i am unaware of.

	08-09-2005 23:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Will the Chinese gov operate under capitalist market conditions in regards to these resources in the future?

Who cares?

	09-09-2005 00:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Who cares?

Are you serious?

Anyone that feels the Chinese system violates human rights for starters. A communist regime with ideals in contrast to us in the west gains control over our (western) oil, steel, zinc, etc.....(crucial military components) and is not obligated to allow free market access to the resources.

As the original post implies - I would suspect the US would care a great deal even if we can't see the difficulty ourselves.

Btw, isn't it strange we got out of the national oil and gas business ourselves with the sale of Petrocan but have no problem with a foreign government doing it.

	09-09-2005 01:43									#15
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Is this an example of what che was talking about in his thread?

	09-09-2005 01:52									#16
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why should we care. Canadian commodities will be sold at market prices. Theyre fungible commodities after all.


And of course, if we ever needed to the put the squeeze on China, its a helluva lot easier to cut off their essential commodities on the west coast of North America than in say, southeast Asia. Or Central Asia. Not that we'd ever do anything like that, of course

	09-09-2005 01:56									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Are you serious? Anyone that feels the Chinese system violates human rights for starters. A communist regime with ideals in contrast to us in the west gains control over our (western) oil, steel, zinc, etc.....(crucial military components) and is not obligated to allow free market access to the resources.

any capitalist company can choose to use resources in a suboptimal manner, for ex selling them at submarket prices to a subsidiary. They do so at their own expense. If China chooses to use their purchased resources suboptimally, that will cost them. And if they do something nasty, like an unprovoked war on Taiwan, you can freeze their assets.

	09-09-2005 02:33									#18
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Canada selling out to the worse of two evils

Why is PetroKAZAKHSTAN based in Canada, anyway?

The only good news is, if you were selling natural resources actually in Canada to the Chinese, you could send in the Mounties and seize them...

	09-09-2005 03:53									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Are you serious? Anyone that feels the Chinese system violates human rights for starters. A communist regime with ideals in contrast to us in the west gains control over our (western) oil, steel, zinc, etc.....(crucial military components) and is not obligated to allow free market access to the resources. As the original post implies - I would suspect the US would care a great deal even if we can't see the difficulty ourselves. Btw, isn't it strange we got out of the national oil and gas business ourselves with the sale of Petrocan but have no problem with a foreign government doing it.

a) I had no problem with having a national oil company

b) I dislike the Chinese government every bit as much as you do. I simply think that if we're willing to trade with them then choking on them buying oil companies is a bit silly. Hopefully they'll run the companies less efficiently than they were being run, which means they'll lose money on the deal (assuming they paid a fair price for the company, which they certainly appear to have)

c) The more assets they've bought and paid for in this country, the more assets of theirs that we have hostage.

d) Oil is a fungible commodity. Oil is a fungible commodity. Oil is a fungible commodity.

	09-09-2005 03:54									#20
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark any capitalist company can choose to use resources in a suboptimal manner, for ex selling them at submarket prices to a subsidiary. They do so at their own expense. If China chooses to use their purchased resources suboptimally, that will cost them. And if they do something nasty, like an unprovoked war on Taiwan, you can freeze their assets.

EXACTLY

	09-09-2005 03:54									#21
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It's not so great if China buys such assets in a country that wouldn't seize them in event of war (since that's the only case it actually matters, as KH points out several times ), but in Canada? Who cares?

	09-09-2005 03:57									#22
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This accomplishes two goals: gets us more money, and ****s with the heads of the Americans at a time that we were wishing for some more "leverage"...

	09-09-2005 03:57									#23
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Why is your avatar a waffle with a quarter on top of it?

	09-09-2005 03:59									#24
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That's syrup.

	09-09-2005 04:01									#26
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Why are only 3.5 of those squares filled with syrup?

	09-09-2005 04:01									#27
	Re: I think Martin's figured out how to make the Americans sit up and take notice Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

.

Attachment: dm_carries_small.jpg
This has been downloaded 83 time(s).

	09-09-2005 04:05									#28
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why are only 3.5 of those squares filled with syrup?

Ask whoever took the picture.

	09-09-2005 04:07									#29
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You suck.

	09-09-2005 04:10									#30
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