18-09-2005 21:29									#1
	Boxer in critical condition fighting for life Put an end to popups!

Critical but alive

As a former competitior in ring and on streets I feel for both sides

I cant help but think of Duk Koo Kim and Ray "Boom-Boom" Mancini read about it here

Then we thank God and the commissions that govern amateurs and require head gear

Gramps

Attachment: 1060267642.jpg
This has been downloaded 85 time(s).

	18-09-2005 21:47									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have so much sympathy for him. Honest.

	18-09-2005 21:51									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Why the Mancini connection?

And no head gear? Does that stop a boxer getting hit in the head? It just spreads the force of the blow. Headguards stop cuts, nothing else.

Last edited by reds4ever on 18-09-2005 at 22:08

	18-09-2005 22:13									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Right, headguards don't really do much to stop the damage to the brains and stuff. Personally, I don't prefer those boxes in peoples heads. It's boxing. Not box beating.

	18-09-2005 23:17									#5
	Tired of ads?

Also heavier (more padded) gloves also do more damage over the long run, since there is more force being exerted onto the brain at impact time.

	19-09-2005 00:22									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Also heavier (more padded) gloves also do more damage over the long run, since there is more force being exerted onto the brain at impact time.

but with gloves the total energy impact is lessened at a point

	19-09-2005 00:25									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Why the Mancini connection?

for a boxer facing life & death afterr competiting

like i said i was "thinking" of that incident

quote: And no head gear? Does that stop a boxer getting hit in the head? It just spreads the force of the blow. Headguards stop cuts, nothing else.

the headbear will stop the direct impact to some degree

I know I have worn them and not worn them in a fight

yes I agree you still get your bell rung and you still get knocked out

	19-09-2005 00:28									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Right, headguards don't really do much to stop the damage to the brains and stuff. Personally, I don't prefer those boxes in peoples heads. It's boxing. Not box beating.

nor is it a deathmatch which most unfortunately happens sometimes

I am not saying if your a fighter in aring you try to ikill the opponent but you surely have to take them out for they will try the same to you

I understand

My point was protection helps it doesnt prevent the injury totally

anyhoo


sad for the people involved

Gramps

	19-09-2005 00:31									#9
	Got spare money?

Yes these things indeed are sad and not what one wants to see.

However, I disagree with the headgear. And I think they should go to smaller gloves, even in boxing. But this is only my opinion.

Then again, I would prefer bareknuckle no holds barred fights, with no eye gouging, small joint manipulation or fish hooking. Everything else would be fair game, also groin strikes. With protective cup naturally and mouth guard.

But then again, that's a different thing already.

	19-09-2005 00:39									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yes these things indeed are sad and not what one wants to see. However, I disagree with the headgear. And I think they should go to smaller gloves, even in boxing. But this is only my opinion. Then again, I would prefer bareknuckle no holds barred fights, with no eye gouging, small joint manipulation or fish hooking. Everything else would be fair game, also groin strikes. With protective cup naturally and mouth guard. But then again, that's a different thing already.

and I was also saying thanks to commissions for amateurs

what happened here is not amateur
and an amateur coming up through the ranks needs training

boxing is not unsafe not any unsafer than any other sports

just when these things happen you just want to step back and wonder if anything could have prevented this?

I mean maybe the bulk of the damage happened during training conditioning or what have youand this was merely the end result not the single determining factor

Ok

Thats what I meant

as a fellow red meat eater

I enjoy a good fight

just I now have a heart and dont want someone to lose their life because of excessive red meat and pepper in my diet

	19-09-2005 00:39									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I was thinking Barbara.

	19-09-2005 00:44									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

of course you don't want to see anyone lose their lives. What do you take me for.

It's controversial thing. OTOH I want to see good fights with good rules, and not some sissie slap contest. Real fighters fighting real fights. THat's it. Nothing else is needed. Unforutnaltey it is dangerous, and even though serious injuries and deaths are still rare, they do happen because it is dangerous but I wouldn't have it any other way. Everyone volunteered for it.

I wouldn't go for reasons that could have prevented it. They pound each others faces for a living. It's kind of predictable. However, it doesn't mean I wouldn't have any sympathy for these sad cases. It's always sad, and in a way stupid, since it's for sport and entertainment so what good was that to die for. But.. that's the life of a fighter and .. I guess all I can say it happens every now and then. And that it is sad and very unfortunate.

But it will happen in the future as well. The onyl thing we should do is to make sure matchmaking is good, so both fighters are at the same level, and that the referees, medical personel etc are also professionals. That's it. Or I can go watch ballet instead.

	19-09-2005 00:46									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I was thinking Barbara.

yeah thats also very sad

	19-09-2005 00:46									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Grandpa,

I just thought why the Mancini fight in particular? There have been plenty of other ring fatalities both before and after that one.

I'd beg to differ on the headguard issue, I did a bit of amatuer boxing just as the headguards were becoming compulsory for amatuers in the UK and I never liked wearing them, IMHO they give a false sense of security and, outside of cuts, no real protection.

As Pekka and Ted have said, large gloves and headguards just spread the force of the blow and traumatize a larger area. People forget that gloves were introduced into boxing to protect the knuckles not the brain.

	19-09-2005 00:54									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Right, I'd say large gloves only prevent the cuts than anything else too. JUst like you guys, I've fought with headguard on and big gloves a little, well not for real but hard sparring and I don't like them because you'll get rocked more easy IMO(!!!). With small gloves used in MMA, I like it much more because it doesn't rock you so easy. Sure, cuts come more often but I don't see any reason big gloves are more safer. Big gloves are good for pro boxers though, because they hit so hard it prevents their hands from breaking all the time, which happens with small MMA type of gloves all the time.

Big gloves = protects the hands.
Small gloves = sexier.

	19-09-2005 00:55									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Pekka of course you don't want to see anyone lose their lives. What do you take me for.

a poly poster with thin skin?

quote: It's controversial thing. OTOH I want to see good fights with good rules, and not some sissie slap contest. Real fighters fighting real fights. THat's it. Nothing else is needed. Unforutnaltey it is dangerous, and even though serious injuries and deaths are still rare, they do happen because it is dangerous but I wouldn't have it any other way. Everyone volunteered for it. I wouldn't go for reasons that could have prevented it. They pound each others faces for a living. It's kind of predictable. However, it doesn't mean I wouldn't have any sympathy for these sad cases. It's always sad, and in a way stupid, since it's for sport and entertainment so what good was that to die for. But.. that's the life of a fighter and .. I guess all I can say it happens every now and then. And that it is sad and very unfortunate. But it will happen in the future as well. The onyl thing we should do is to make sure matchmaking is good, so both fighters are at the same level, and that the referees, medical personel etc are also professionals. That's it.

I couldnt agree more Pekka

quote: Or I can go watch ballet instead.

which has nothing to do with fighting well..except fighting the urge to go look a second time

	19-09-2005 01:00									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Grandpa, I just thought why the Mancini fight in particular? There have been plenty of other ring fatalities both before and after that one. I'd beg to differ on the headguard issue, I did a bit of amatuer boxing just as the headguards were becoming compulsory for amatuers in the UK and I never liked wearing them, IMHO they give a false sense of security and, outside of cuts, no real protection. As Pekka and Ted have said, large gloves and headguards just spread the force of the blow and traumatize a larger area. People forget that gloves were introduced into boxing to protect the knuckles not the brain.

Again not the mancini fight "in particular" juyst I was a Boom Boom fan and having fought a lot also Kim being Korean and having studied (here we go with a Martial arts arguement folks) Tae Kwon Do for years the fight had a lot of memory thats all..nothing more..............

I agree to protect the knuckles is a point but also if you dont cushion more impact will be felt

yes Mike Tyson or Sugar Ray Leonard couyld certainly knock me,you and most everyone else out with or without gloves, they just do somewhat cushion the blows..as stated earlier I been in street fights as a bouncer and in the ring ya get hurt both ways just you feel bare fisted quicker

ok
Hey

anyone hear how the fighter is doing?

Gramps

	19-09-2005 01:00									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

But if you mean should we think protective measures outside the fighting itself, ABSOLUTELY.

This has to do with many things.. all the way from proper training to testing for drugs. We don't want peopel doping up and all that. It has to be as fair as possible for both, and we need to have people who know when to call it quits, but not before it's done for. It's true art to know when to step in for the ref and call it quits for the other guy.

Plus, I don't like the boxing rules of standing up for the count. I think it's rather dangerous when a fighter is super rocked, and is given 10 seconds to recover, for few times, and then the other fighter just blasts through the other one.

I think they shouldn't have that time to recover. It's over when it's over.

	19-09-2005 01:04									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Sure, cuts come more often but I don't see any reason big gloves are more safer. Big gloves are good for pro boxers though, because they hit so hard it prevents their hands from breaking all the time,

you just hit myu point exactly

what dop you think is happening if your hand break up in a fight, what exactly doi you think the opponents head and brain area are being subjected to?

Just asking to have you look at what you just said and I could not agree more

	19-09-2005 01:05									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Same with the '3 knock down rule' making an automatic stoppage. If a fighter is unfit to continue it makes no difference whether he's been knocked down 3 times or 300 times in a round.

	19-09-2005 01:07									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Grandpa Troll you just hit myu point exactly what dop you think is happening if your hand break up in a fight, what exactly doi you think the opponents head and brain area are being subjected to? Just asking to have you look at what you just said and I could not agree more

There was no thought what so ever given to the damage to the brain when gloves were inroduced to boxing, it was purely to protect the hands. People just assume otherwise.

	19-09-2005 01:07									#23
	Support Apolyton

right, well it can't be anything good that happens to the other guys head, that's for sure.

But I think the danger itself is more of the.. how the brains shake inside the skull.. I don't think .. well I don't know let's put it that way, how much of a difference it makes if you have big gloves or not. I would think it's not a big difference.

AND I have experinced that big gloves tend to rock you more, well at least that happened to me. The blows are kind of heavier and no matter where it hits, it's hitting your head as a whole.

	19-09-2005 01:09									#24
	Remove this text

Correct Pekka, it's movement of the brain inside the skull that causes the most damage. Bigger gloves tend to cause the head the move more and so cause more damage.

	19-09-2005 01:12									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I havent hear a word on this fighter but from what i understand he only had burr holes drilled, this can be down in the emergency room in necessary. Its not excatly brain surgery since they are only drilling holes in the skull and placing drains in to drain the hematoma. The injury is more life threatning then the procedure.

	19-09-2005 01:13									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski I havent hear a word on this fighter but from what i understand he only had burr holes drilled, this can be down in the emergency room in necessary. Its not excatly brain surgery since they are only drilling holes in the skull and placing drains in to drain the hematoma. The injury is more life threatning then the procedure.

thanks mrs t

	19-09-2005 01:16									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever Correct Pekka, it's movement of the brain inside the skull that causes the most damage. Bigger gloves tend to cause the head the move more and so cause more damage.

so and you are getting into an area of my expertise now reds4ever, what your saying is if I have a wider area of force(Bigger Gloves) I am causing more damage than if I reduce that are by say 20% and no padding I cause less damage?

	19-09-2005 01:18									#28
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

He had holes drilled in his head? I'm no doctor, but that to me sounds like pressure in the head, and if there's nothing else, it's not necessarily brain damage too bad.. but then again I don't know and I'm definitely not a doctor.

About boxing though, it always amazes me how good some of those cut men are... they just fix up the cut fast, even bad looking ones and it holds up most of the times. Some of them are really good at it.

	19-09-2005 01:20									#29
	Got spare money?

np i should mention these drains have monitors on them to measure ICP. Inter cranial pressure and if the pressure rises the guy will need further treatment surgically. If not then he should recover with minimal damage. He will have some but hopefully for him not alot

	19-09-2005 01:21									#30
	Tired of ads?

Unlike your good self I'm no 'expert' Grandpa. What I do know as a boxer and follower of boxing for the last 20+ years is that the general opinion amonst the profesionals is that bigger gloves/ headguards do not help reduce the concussive force of a punch.