22-09-2005 17:07									#61
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I read the article and it seems that the writer is a tad bit too excited about automation of workers. Of all the Civ titles, I never automated my workers; one of the reasons, is because I don't want the workers to build roads and railroads in ridiculous routes that make no practical sense. And what if I prefer a specific type of improvement on a certain tile, even if an automated worker wants to replace it with what is suppose to be the best improvement for that tile? I have always micromanaged workers, and by the late game, I do get the feeling of tediousness and weariness but I have taken it as a necessary inconvenience, given the flaws of automated workers. Maybe with Civ IV I will try automating my workers for the first time, to see how it works. They may be more "intelligently" automated than in previous Civ titles.

Ah, you do know that in Civ3 if you "Shift-A" automate the workers they they will -not- change any improvement that's there right? That's how you can automate for things like pollution cleanup, general road/rail building other than military net's, etc.

Typically I SHift-A my workers once I get more than a few dozen of them and just keep a dozen or half dozen for specific things I want to do.

	22-09-2005 17:26									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: That addition alone should give Civ4 more flavor and fun and one-more-turniness than the bland experience of Civ3. Indeed. Some of the stuff that people dismissively reject as 'fluff' was integral to a lot of people's enjoyment of Civ/SMAC. CivIII just didn't have that and lacked a lot of what makes the series so addictive.

Civ3, IMHO, was head's and shoulders above SMAC as far as gameplay. SMAC was interesting and very unique in what it offered with raising/lowering land, the various social engineering for government types, etc, but it was very dry and too "abstract" for me.

Not to mention spies sucked and some of the AI was horribly broken and abusable. I liked Civ3 since it was like the original games in concetp but different enough with culture and resources to make things new and more dynamic.

Again, just my opinion, I wonder if the SMAC fanboys will lambast Civ4 if it's not SMAC with newer graphics like they did with Civ3? For those who say Civ3 sucked and didn't appeal to the SMAC players, well you may be right, but since Civ3 sold ore copies than any other Civ type game, including SMAC, I think ole Sid knows what his fan's like with each addition to the Civ family..

	22-09-2005 17:34									#63
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder I'm more inclined to think that those right-added icons are absolute prerequisites, and only 1 of the lines/arrows leading to a tech (if any) are necessary on top of the prerequisites. Otherwise I wouldn't understand the hipe about OR choices for moving in the tech tree.

Actually the lines drawn from one tech to another are prereq's just as much as the tech's whose icons appear in the top right of the picture as well. They are all required, not just a choice here or there.

For example, look at "Calendar"; it requires both mathematic's and sailing before it can be researched. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/techtree/

	22-09-2005 17:40									#64
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Yes, but my point is that, if more then one line goes to a tech, that only one of those lines is necessary next to the prerequisites placed on the top right of tech label.

So for instance Nationalism has the top right prerequisite of Civil Service, but needs on top of that only Philosophy OR Divine Right to be researched.

Perhaps I didn't make my view clear enough on that point?

	22-09-2005 17:55									#65
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quote: To prevent you from constantly switching civics, there is a slight cost whenever you change, as your society will temporarily slip into anarchy while the revolution is under way.

It's going to be really irritating to get a long anarchy for every civics change.

	22-09-2005 18:01									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Actually the lines drawn from one tech to another are prereq's just as much as the tech's whose icons appear in the top right of the picture as well. They are all required, not just a choice here or there. For example, look at "Calendar"; it requires both mathematic's and sailing before it can be researched. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/techtree/

No. It was expressly said in numerous interviews that ONLY ONE of the prerequisites is enough to research a given technology, NOT ALL of them.

So in your example, you can research Calendar when you have either Mathematics OR Sailing.

	22-09-2005 18:12									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Martinus No. It was expressly said in numerous interviews that ONLY ONE of the prerequisites is enough to research a given technology, NOT ALL of them. So in your example, you can research Calendar when you have either Mathematics OR Sailing.

This is a big change to the tech tree mechanism that I wasnt aware of. Allowing an 'either or' to the prerequisite allows for much more flexibility than we had with civ3. "Lines of research" was an idea that we tried to implement with civ3 mods but couldnt really achieve since the tools weren't there. Again, I'll make the comment that Firaxis seem to have listened and have hopefully taken the best ideas.

	22-09-2005 18:22									#68
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Yup, that's right. This also means that you could, at least in theory, make very far-fetched technological leaps (by overtaking several technologies in between) if there is a link, although it would (and should) be prohibitively costly.

	22-09-2005 18:33									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Martinus No. It was expressly said in numerous interviews that ONLY ONE of the prerequisites is enough to research a given technology, NOT ALL of them. So in your example, you can research Calendar when you have either Mathematics OR Sailing.

Flight with only Combustion or Physics?

I have my doubts. Look for instance at Pottery. It has lines coming from Fishing and Agriculture, but not from the Wheel, which is just in front of it. But it does has the Wheel icon on the top right side.

	22-09-2005 18:53									#70
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I guess there will be both solutions. Some techs will probably only require one other tech, some more.

	22-09-2005 18:59									#71
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Flight with only Combustion or Physics? I have my doubts. Look for instance at Pottery. It has lines coming from Fishing and Agriculture, but not from the Wheel, which is just in front of it. But it does has the Wheel icon on the top right side.

I find the theory that the little icon represents a prerequisite unattenable, since in most cases both techs are right next to each other, so it would be fairly simple to draw an arrow from one to the other.

Maybe having the tech shown in the icon makes it easier (faster) to research the tech, rather than this being a prerequisite?

As for only one of the prerequisites for technology being needed (and not all of them) this is reported that way by CivIV FAQs on both Apolyton and Civfanatics, with links to actual articles showing that. If you have any articles showing that this is not in fact the case and the prerequisites work the same way as in other Civs, please post it.

	22-09-2005 19:13									#72
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The other way around perhaps. OR the tech(s) having a line to a tech are necessary, OR the topright icon(s). In cases where the lined/topright prerequisites border the tech in question they did it to make more clear the different ways to reach it.

Better then that I can't come up with. And no, I have no specifics to back it up either.

	22-09-2005 19:14									#73
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Actually you could be right - since otherwise some techs, like Divine Right, would have no prerequisites whatsoever.

Well, I guess we will have to wait and see.

	22-09-2005 19:17									#74
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30-40 times sleeping.

	22-09-2005 19:19									#75
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...and just closing and opening your eyes for a minute doesn't count, believe me, often tried it as a kid.

	22-09-2005 19:27									#76
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Flemish tricks eh?

	22-09-2005 20:49									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Ah, you do know that in Civ3 if you "Shift-A" automate the workers they they will -not- change any improvement that's there right? That's how you can automate for things like pollution cleanup, general road/rail building other than military net's, etc.

IIRC not every shortcut added to fine tuning workers automation has been documented into Civ Conquest Civilopedia. At least I remember to have start a game after a year and I was enable to properly automate my "catch the mole" slaves...

Can someone help me pointing my eyes into a full shortcuts lists? Thank you in advance.

	22-09-2005 20:56									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Philotas It's going to be really irritating to get a long anarchy for every civics change.

If the anarchy still work as in Civ III I agree with you it would be unrealistic: we should have at least some people acclaiming us (think about slaves if we approve freedom...), not a whole Nation "full brake" on production, no food, revolt in every cities...

Anyway, if the effects are moddable, I suppose we can rebalance them at our pleasure.

	22-09-2005 22:41									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Nikolai I guess there will be both solutions. Some techs will probably only require one other tech, some more.

Well, the tech tree looks like it will not be that much diferent from Civ3. If you look carefully, there seem to be very few techs that actually have more than one prequisite.

	23-09-2005 02:36									#80
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Another question regarding the tech tree:

Can you "backward-research"? Say for example that this one tech i just researched had 2 pre-reqs, but i only knew one of them. Can i then research the other pre-req from the one i just researched? Assuming of course i don't know the pre-req of the one i'm attempting to research.

Does that make sense? Sounds to confusing. Sorry - forget about it



Anyhow... Here's my take on the "icon pre-reqs" in the top right corner of the techs. Perhaps those are not directly required, but if you know them it speeds up (reduces the cost) the research of the tech?

Or in the case of flight, since it has no "direct" prereq, i suppose you could research it in the stone age, but do to its cost it could be thousand of years before you discover it?

	23-09-2005 02:41									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Ah, you do know that in Civ3 if you "Shift-A" automate the workers they they will -not- change any improvement that's there right? That's how you can automate for things like pollution cleanup, general road/rail building other than military net's, etc. Typically I SHift-A my workers once I get more than a few dozen of them and just keep a dozen or half dozen for specific things I want to do.

Thanks for this info -- I learned something new today.

	23-09-2005 05:04									#82
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Thanks for this info -- I learned something new today.

There are a few more things you can automate workers with. One of them is "clean Pollution", too. Others are "this city only" or "this city only, no altering"

To find out what all is available, turn on the advanced unit options in the settings - should be in the first section ("game"). You should now have an additional icon bar at the bottom middle screen with buttons.