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Rynn:
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New York, NY
Jun 2000
time: 00:13
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K:
I disagree with #2, #6 and #7.
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re # 2:
Making all the factions equal re energy credits takes away an inbuilt game balancer for Morgan.
Giving everyone an extra tech and the Uni two removes one of the crucial early game decisions that players must make re their research
Giving everyone the same # colony pods removes the slight growth disadvantage the CC has (and the Pirates, if I play as them) and nullifies the slight growth advantage the Hive has.
But most of all, you've removed the element of choice - of planning what our early faction and society will look like, and created imbalance ab initio
IMHO hardly an auspicious opening for a ratings test game.
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re # 6:
I'll play as the Believers
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re # 7:
Very few PBEMs are played on the MoP because we all know it so intimately. The landmarks are not dropped randomly but occur in the same location each time (unless the CMN alters them).
But more importantly, it removes any sense of dicovery, of being on a new planet, of exploring.
Bluntly, I'm not interested in playing the MoP.
Rynn
[This message has been edited by Rynn: (edited January 23, 2001).]
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mark13
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Northampton, England
Sep 2000
time: 05:13
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Yeah, I pretty much concur with Rynn on this one - there isn't much point in playing the Map of Planet - it just doesn't interest me any more, to put not too fine a point on it.
Regarding the starting units, I think the 'whatsits' system made the most sense.  Morgan should, as usual, start with an extra 100 credits, and the Believers their inherent 10 year penalty. This would remove complication, and play the game how it was meant to be played.
BTW, it's the CMN, not the MSN  
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Keygen
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Athens, Hellas
Jan 2000
time: 07:13
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OK, first of all I must say as stated before that the rules will be determined by all of us, not me.
If arguments come up for any rule that will be proposed by a player then the majority will determine wether the rule will be applied or declined.
This game came up after Solver's desire to join his first SMAC/X PBEM game which would be rated also.
I took the initiative on starting a game.
Solver is an experienced SMAC player but newbie to SMAC PBEM although he has joined several CTP PBEM so he could be consider not new to the PBEM idea.
My first post was an introduction to start from somewhere as the emails didn't help much. Some points are my requests and some would be more questions than requests.
OK, lets see every reply in detail:
Googlie (Rynn)
Comment:
quote:
Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM
re # 2:
Making all the factions equal re energy credits takes away an inbuilt game balancer for Morgan.
Giving everyone an extra tech and the Uni two removes one of the crucial early game decisions that players must make re their research
Giving everyone the same # colony pods removes the slight growth disadvantage the CC has (and the Pirates, if I play as them) and nullifies the slight growth advantage the Hive has.
But most of all, you've removed the element of choice - of planning what our early faction and society will look like, and created imbalance ab initio
IMHO hardly an auspicious opening for a ratings test game.
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Answer:
I have post that each faction will preserve its own characteristics. That means that the Morganites will take 100 gold extra as usual. As far as I remember you had recommended the 200 gold as an alternative accelerated start. And most of us liked the idea.
I would recommend 100 gold each and 200 gold the Morganites.
By preserving each factions individuality I don't thing we would agitate the balance. It's really boring to wait a couple of months to grow some and make contact with another faction. That is the reason for my suggestion on an accelerated start. To constrain to minimum the boredom of a slow standard start.
And I don't thing that a couple of colony pods and some scouts would removed the element of choice.
Anyway if no accelerated start is a common will then I will accept it .
Comment:
quote:
Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM
re # 6:
I'll play as the Believers
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Answer:
Sure its fine by me!
You said that you wanted the Pirates if SMACX would be the one to play.
I>Comment[/i]:
quote:
Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM
re # 7:
Very few PBEMs are played on the MoP because we all know it so intimately. The landmarks are not dropped randomly but occur in the same location each time (unless the CMN alters them).
But more importantly, it removes any sense of dicovery, of being on a new planet, of exploring.
Bluntly, I'm not interested in playing the MoP.
Rynn
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Answer:
I must have mistaken an email of yours. I though when you had said Huge Planet that you ment Huge Map of Planet. Well I don't mind at all if it's gonna be a random one although a known map would accelerate contact. But it truly "kills" the beauty of the unknown.
Mark13
Comment:
quote:
Originally posted by mark13 on 01-23-2001 07:21 PM
Yeah, I pretty much concur with Rynn on this one - there isn't much point in playing the Map of Planet - it just doesn't interest me any more, to put not too fine a point on it.
Regarding the starting units, I think the 'whatsits' system made the most sense. Morgan should, as usual, start with an extra 100 credits, and the Believers their inherent 10 year penalty. This would remove complication, and play the game how it was meant to be played.
BTW, it's the CMN, not the MSN
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Answer:
Well, no MoP then .
As I said, 100 gold extra for the Morganites.
What do you mean by "whatsits"? The defaults of the factions?
Really? Common man, I know it's CMN (Creator-Moderator-Narrator, right?) I was just talking to icq that time about the MSN messenger .
Misotu
Comment:
quote:
Originally posted by Misotu on 01-23-2001 07:39 PM
Um ... I thought we were taking the original 7 factions but in a SMAX setting?
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Answer:
I don't care. What ever you like. SMACX was the desire of the majority.
Comment:
quote:
Originally posted by Misotu on 01-23-2001 08:33 PM
Big_C are you suggesting removing starting techs? I'm not sure why we'd do this? In a way, perhaps it might increase the UoP advantage. They can make up a lost tech pretty fast, but for a faction like the Believers, losing a tech means nothing to trade ...
Rynn, I couldn't take the Gaians now ... not after our agreement, and getting Tau to suffer -1 industry 'n all
PS I vote for the whatsits system and against the Map of Planet. I don't think we should mess around with the factions and I still think we should take the original 7, with the Gaians in and the CyC out ...
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Answer:
Although I had started playing the game from the date it was released in Greece I haven't play many games (single or mp) so I don't consider my self experienced. I guess I don't know yet how to take advantage of all the UoP's characteristics.
I vote for an extra tech!
No MoP and if Solver don't have any problem he will accept I think the Gaians.
Big Kanuk
Comment:
quote:
Originally posted by big_canuk on 01-23-2001 08:24 PM
Keygen, call me what you like, but I think the following ideas are interesting and could be "built in", if you would like.
1. The whatsits system
2. No extra techs, which negates UoP, and possibly Gaian advantage
3. More than normal starting ecs on an additive, rather than multiplicative basis, would negate a Morgan advantage.
4. Maaap of Plaaanet is a dog (or possibly a goat)
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Answer:
If no extra tech is a common will then no extra tech will be .
100 gold for each and 200 golds for Morganites wouldn't negate any advantage.
MoP is not a beloved one as I see . OK...OK...No Map of Planet.
Comment:
quote:
Originally posted by big_canuk on 01-23-2001 09:04 PM
Misotu:
No, I was clear as mud again. I am in favour of a "normal" tech start. Normal starting techs for all factions, plus a freebie for the UoP.
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Answer:
If the majority wants to, yeah sure but it would give us all a faster "tech" start.
Damn! Quite a long post  .
Well, expecting your answers to follow soon .
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:13
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Keygen - et al:
I purposefully called the start-game purchase units "whatsits" to avoid confusion with energy credits. Call them "marks" for want of a better term.
Each player starts the game with 200 marks out of which sum s/he "purchases" their desired starting position (a mix of colony pods, scouts and formers, or rovers in Sparta's case)
Thus if I am a low-growth faction (say the CC) I might opt for 6 colony pods and a former, relying on internal building to get my scouts and formers.
If I am Sparta, I might take 1 pod, 1 former and five rovers, and go looking for others to subjugate.
If I have no problem growing (say the Believers), but want to have a good energy production after turn ten, I can choose, say, 3 colony pods and five formers, and have a solar colelctor park built (small one) by 2111.
The whole point is, this is an accelerated start technique that doesn't imbalance the play of the factions because they are choices the individual player made, recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of their faction
Somewhat arbitrary additional credits and the same number of units for each, while seemingly egalitarian, actually distorts the built in balance inherent in each faction.
I don't want to be picky, but let's not just blindly rush into a game that we'll be playing for the next 9 months or so, and that'll be used as a benchmark for the ladders system, and risk a premature drop-out of someone muttering "the start was fixed to favor so-and-so"
Apart from the various tourneys (and thanks Tau Ceti and mark13 for seting these up) which have had a lot of up-front work done by the tourney administrator, I've found that the games that collapse or frustratingly need to be restarted are those where insufficient up-front work hasn't been done.
We play for fun, and I expect (if this game lasts 300 turns) to be investing some 100 to 150 hours on it in the next year. In that context, I don't begrudge the time taken initially to "get it right"
(End of sermon)
Googlie
(Ah, the advantages of being an old fart)
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Tau Ceti
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Kyoto, Japan
Nov 1999
time: 14:13
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Edit: Ah, Googlie beat me to it. Well, the last line is still relevant.
Keygen, what Googlie actually suggested was a system where every faction got 200 'whatsits', as they have now been known - essentially mineral credits - to use for purchasing starting units. Colony Pods cost 30, scouts 10, formers 20 etc. That would give us a choice of what starting units we would like, and that was what everyone supported so far.
I also hate the Map of Planet, and would prefer a standard tech start.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited January 24, 2001).]
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Keygen
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Athens, Hellas
Jan 2000
time: 07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Tau Ceti on 01-24-2001 10:45 AM
Edit: Ah, Googlie beat me to it. Well, the last line is still relevant.
Keygen, what Googlie actually suggested was a system where every faction got 200 'whatsits', as they have now been known - essentially mineral credits - to use for purchasing starting units. Colony Pods cost 30, scouts 10, formers 20 etc. That would give us a choice of what starting units we would like, and that was what everyone supported so far.
I also hate the Map of Planet, and would prefer a standard tech start.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited January 24, 2001).]
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OK Tau Ceti, I got it!
I would like you or Googlie to send me an email whenever is possible and if not hard to do to explain me how exactly is this made.
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big_canuk
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Leamington, ON, Canada
Jul 2000
time: 00:13
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1. Yes
2. No
3. Morgan
4. smacx
5. No, random
Tau:
I would say the UPN, should pick the locations first, and then get the units. 6 CPs, or 5 rovers, are both extremes, and you should suffer if you pick either and are unlucky. Of course, Tau, if you are saying that you will voluntarily limit yourself to no more than 2 rovers, then I will feel a lot better picking 6 CPs.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:13
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Fast start procedure:
Each player selects from the 'store' those pods/units he or she wants, spending 200 whatsits (all units are 'Independent')
Price:
Colony Pod 30
Sea Pod (Pirates only) 30
Unity Rover (Sparta only) 30
Unity Foil 30
gun foil (Pirates only) 30
Former 20
Scout 10
We e-mail the CMN (Dilithium Dad?) our selection, plus the University tells DD what free tech he wants, and the password we want to use (or he will choose one for each and so advise us).
These goodies are in in addition to the normal starting unit the game provides at the thinker level (i.e. not the 2 colony pods, but the independent scout each of the five other factions get and the Unity Rover Sparta gets and the gunfoil the Pirates get)
DD sets it up thru the scenario editor, on a "look first" basis, balancing each faction's start position, and setting each faction in turn with the password. He'll save as a game, and send to the first on the list who will then start playing by moving the pods, units, formers etc.
(I suggest we load the factions in the Firaxis order rather than changing, so the graphics will be true to the game - this would mean that the Gaians would start - if Solver plays as the Gaians - or the Consciousness would be second last if he plays as Aki - the Pirates will be last under both choices)
(And Tau, if indeed it is started thru the scenario - which I believe it needs to be for this method - can you ensure that Dilithium Dad is aware of the difficulty bug and how to fix it?)
I'll post the Chiron Winter rules to see if we want to abide by them for gameplay (they took a month to determine, with lots of input from Mose - - and Aredhran)
G.
[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited January 24, 2001).]
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Solver
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Apolyton Duke Of Something
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Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:13
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OK, here are my words on this, and that's my final:
I'm Prime Function Solver, no map of planet. I would also like to have the starting tech, and one more for Keygen, to speed the game up. Next, I vote for Googlie's "whatsit's" instead of the same for everyone. So, when we are finished, we should try to launch it at Friday, as Keygen said. Who then is CMN?
quote:
Solver is an experienced SMAC player but newbie to SMAC PBEM although he has joined several CTP PBEM so he could be consider not new to the PBEM idea.
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Surely, I don't consider myself being new to PBEM, as my Ladders system needs some experience. Actually, Civilization is the first game I really loved, and all of the Civ games, incuding SMAX, are yet my favorite game series.
I know I'm a SMAC PBEM newbie, but I won't consider myself one as soon as I join some 4 PBEMs. But so far, please be tolearnt to the questions I may be asking here. And on of them comes here - does SMAC automatically save the turn for the next player on the Desktop or not?
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Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com
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Tau Ceti
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Kyoto, Japan
Nov 1999
time: 14:13
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A couple of comments on the purchase system:
Sea formers should probably be added.
I am not sure a price of 30 for sea colony pods is fair. I know, the Pirates do usually start with as many pods as everyone else, and the full cost of 70 is clearly excessive, but they do get a free Pressure Dome in each of those bases, which is a large advantage. When they can start with transports as well, they can expand onto land almost immediately, removing their last early disadvantage. With all this, I do not think a price hike to at least 40 would be too much.
The Spartans start with Scout Rovers, not Unity Rovers. No big thing, but Unity Rovers cannot be upgraded in the workshop, and it means they will not need to prototype the rover chassis. (Of course, that is arguably a disadvantage for the Spartans! )
big_canuk's idea about the starting positions sounds very good. Of course, it means the CMN must create the world first so that he is not influenced by the player's unit choices, and we should delay sending those emails. I have not talked to D-Dad yet as it is nice to at least reach agreement on the world parameters before asking for a game. Everyone seems to agree on huge random planet, average everything, but what about pods?
And I think we should leave the starting date up to the CMN. It is bad form to demand that the game be ready at a specific time. This will take months anyway, so if we have to wait another day or four, it is no calamity.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:13
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TC:
I wrestled a bit with an extra cost for the sea colony pods (and forgot about sea formers). I started seven games on the parameters we had chosen, one for each faction, and you are right, the Pirates start with 2 pods and a gun foil, Sparta has 2 pods and a scout rover, and everyone else 2 pods and a scout infantryman. To my mind Firaxis made no differentiation (perhaps recognizing the - 1 growth penalty of the Pirates) and we have decided not to bend any other Firaxis rule for fear of upsetting a delicate game balance)
True, they get a Pressure Dome in each base. But the Hive get a Perimeter Defense, the Uni get a Network Node, Morgan gets his extra credits, and the PK's get their extra 2 pop before hab limits breached.
So why single out the Pirates?
When I devised the "purchase formula" a year or so ago it was only with the original factions in mind. I'll do a little scenario testing for mature bases (i.e. with the requisite techs) to see what comparative costs colony pods and formers have (i.e. we know that sea pods and sea formers are more expensive for a land-based faction to produce, but are they comparatively more expoensive for Sven? IIRC when playing the Pirates land CP's were cheaper than sea ones, so maybe you have a point.
Don't go away, I'll be right back .............
Googlie
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:13
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Ah - no, not quite correct
Pirates, sea base HQ - no goody squares
4 nuts, 3 mins, 3 energy
Land faction, land base HQ - no goody squares
3 nuts, 2 mins, 2 energy
(exactly the effect of building recycling tanks at the land base)
Second base:
Pirates 4/3/2
land faction 3/2/1
Again, exactly the effect of building recycling tanks at the land base
(And don't the Uni get a NN at every base that the Pirates have to build, and don't the Hive get a PD at every base that the Pirates have to build and dont ...........
G.
[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited January 24, 2001).]
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big_canuk
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Leamington, ON, Canada
Jul 2000
time: 00:13
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Nope, I just tested it.
Started a game with Lal. HQ was 2/1/2 (one extra energy casuse of HQ)
2nd base was 2/1/1
Pirates were 3/2/3, and 3/2/2 respectivly.
I found a further *big* advantage of the pirates is that within 2 turns, all of their highly productive bases will be established, whereas the land based factions may still be spreading, and may have established no bases or only 1 or 2. This is a *huge* turn advantage on its own. Couple this with Huge Planet and lots of unoccupied land, of which the Pirates can take advantage, and I think some additional cost is warranted. (Possibly even the full 60 or 70 cost of a Sea Colony Pod)
Being Morgan, I could always vote for the 30 whatsit level for say 100 ecs at turn 30 and 100 ecs every 20 turns thereafter.
[This message has been edited by big_canuk (edited January 24, 2001).]
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24-01-2001 03:44
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