04-01-2000 04:26									#1
	Just a few things about OCC Full PM-box? Change here!

First of all 2.42 is a must. It is much easier to get gifts, alliances and maps. I played two games today on the exact same map. When I played with MGE I was slaughtered. (I was trying to get more and more gifts) But I played the exact same map, same civs everything and I managed to land in 1881 a personal best. For anyone who is trying to beat Paul's record use 2.42 or else it is almost impossible.

The rest of this is a bunch of questions. First of all I want to know what would be the best combination of resources? 2 fish, 2 gold - 2 whale, 2 gold et cetera. Another thing for Paul, since you are the undisputed king, excuse me diety of OCC I was wondering if you will be willing to give me some hints if I posted a log of a game? Please, if you can't I'll understand.

And lastly in your game comparson with Aurelius I noticed you found many huts. I cannot seem to find any huts. My problem is that if I get units to get more huts my production suffers and I can't build things fast enough. And if I don't get units I can't get ahead in techs because I haven't received them from huts. Any thoughts?

___
CtG

	04-01-2000 04:55									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Caesar..... hopefully in OCC you get units close to other civs so they become NONE units that way production isn't slowed.
Also with techs.... if you get abunch before monarchy that can really slow you down to the point IMO that Monarchy is a must have tech asap..... i would rather units and money than too many techs because i guarrantee you will get some that aren't on the right path for the time

I hate taking 39 turns to discouver COL after getting currency trade writing and masonry..... before Monarchy .... that to me is the killer in OCC


------------------
They call me Mr. Fierce

	04-01-2000 12:25									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Caesar, I think the best combination of resources would be two whales/two gold. Whales are very good in the early game when they give a good mix of all resources. Gold gives the most trade but has no food so you can only use it later when you have a larger city with other workers on irrigated grassland to compensate for the lack of food.

On the huts: I always look for huts before I settle my city. The best is to get one or two fast units from your first couple of huts. If they are NON they don't require support, so it won't cost you shields. If I get a supported unit I will usually send it back to my city and disband it. In Aurelius' game I got some huts in the beginning, but unfortunately I got only three units, one supported so I disbanded it and the other two were later killed by barbarians. If you have read my log you will have noticed that I got no more huts after 1500 BC because of this.

I would be willing to look at your log and give some hints.

	04-01-2000 15:50									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Me too, War4ever!

You get the code of laws and ceremonial burial and alphabet and for some reason, you don't even get a choice that includes monarchy sometimes! Dat kills me!

Oh, War, one of these days, I'm going to take you up on that multichallenge...I'll show you war, bigbritches.

	05-01-2000 10:46									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Paul -

Caesar says that 2.42 is a must for a record, is this the version you use or do you use MGE? I use MGE and my best win is late 20th cent (yes, I suck... )

	05-01-2000 00:47									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'll be posting my log later today. It is MUCH EASIER to get alliances and tribute in 2.42 trust me. If Paul was trying it on MGE, he would probably still hold the record but it might be somewhere around 1840 or so. The extra money really makes a difference. 20 years for me and I'm not even a very experienced player. BTW I'm hosting an OCC MGE, probably on emp or king, diety would just be slaughter. If anyone is interested in joining this game there are still 2 openings. I'm not exactly sure how its going to work with huts from cities, but its probably going to be that you must rushbuy a settler the second turn. The rules will be discussed in detail before the game.

I'll be posting my log here. I have to go buy a few things in the city and then I'll post the logs. Thanks Paul.

	05-01-2000 02:09									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Crow, as Caesar said I use v2.42

	05-01-2000 02:34									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Having played the 4whales game on both MGE and v2.42 now a few times, I am not sure which is easier. MGE seems to give bigger trade bonuses and individual techs research faster if the AI is near tech-wise, which in my mind comes close to balancing out the aggressiveness of the AI. In 2.42 it is pretty easy to get a bunch of alliances and gifts or tribute, and a fool proof choke point is not as essential.

I haven't recorded the "list of data" numbers for the tech advances, but maybe one of these days...
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited January 04, 2000).]

	05-01-2000 03:12									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Clearly it has been established that the AI is nicer and you can get gifts from 4 to 5 civs every 5 turns. This leads to a lot of money. Which will generally mean faster techs. I have recorded the tech requirements for diety on MGE. Tommorrow I will do the same thing for 2.42. I'll see if my list was archived, (or else I'll be pissed off at the adminstration it took 2 hours). Well I'll see. Here is my abbreviated log.

4000 BC Start Alpha, BW
3950 BC Hut 25 gold
3950 BC City
3650 BC Hut CoL
3450 BC Hut Currency
3000 BC Hut 50 gold
2100 BC Monarchy
1750 BC Colussus
600 BC Republic
60 AD Shakespeare's
160 AD Trade Route
300 AD Trade Route
260 AD Copernicus'
820 AD Isaac Newtons
1120 AD Democracy
1852 AD Space Flight
1853 AD Apollo
1874 AD Launch
1889 AD Arrival

	05-01-2000 11:28									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I probably could use some more information, such as when you built improvements and your complete list of science discoveries. However, from what I can see it looks good until you get republic in 600 BC. After that I see that you get Shakespeare before Copernicus. I always try to get Copernicus first. Also, you seem to be getting your trade routes set uo rather late. I also usually go for democracy at around the same time as Newton. I also see from your log that you only mention two trade routes. I assume that you just forgot to mention the third one? Having three trade routes is very important and you should want to have them established in the BC era or at least not to long after 1 AD.

	05-01-2000 12:55									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

Now i get it
Is there any patch around to turn MGE into 2.42?
In my last OCC game i gave Russians 7 techs. Their attitude turned into 'Enthusiastic' but they didn't even wanted to sign a peace treaty.
I've managed to land 1880AC. Sum of all my gifts/tribute was about 500 gold.
Early in the game,when i was still in despotism,AI civs simply haven't any gold. In that stage of game they do pay me a tribute,not money but useless techs (map making,horse) and that only distracted me on my way to monarchy/republic.
By the way,Caesar,are you still willing to try multiplayer OCC?
If so,please contact me via icq. You may find my # in my profile. I'll be online today about 6-7 pm est or so.

sf

	05-01-2000 20:45									#12
	Tired of ads?

Okay, trade routes before 1 AD. I think I know where one of my problems is now Paul, when do you usually go to repub? When I go too early, I end up needing Shakes ASAP, but if I don't I go for Copernicus. Also, in the first 3 trade routes, do you set them up with any city, or do you look for those that demand the goods you have? Also, how often do you replace trade routes when a new commodity becomes available?

Thanks. Sorry for all the questions.

	05-01-2000 21:20									#13
	Tired of ads?

Hi, y'all. Relative newbie here, and I used to think I was pretty decent. Got Civ2 for Xmas'99 (I know, but it was a gift), and I read with a lot of interest about the OCC.

Currently I'm fooling around with using one city, but I'm using a custom map with custom bonus terrain and custom goodie hut placement.

Before I ask my question, let me just admire you guys a little bit. Getting to AC by the year 1903 is quite impressive in my book. 1803 is (at this point) unfathomable to me.

Anyways, I tried it last night, but when I got the technologies that allowed you to build SS parts, other, more militarily powerful nations, demanded this. Alliances cancelled, sneak attacks, etc. I know trading technology is important and necessary, but when I gave them this stuff, they all started building the SS faster.

Also, I'm not quite clear on the caravans. After you establish your maximum 3 trade routes, what is the benefit you get from establishing more trade routes (other than some extra cash)?

Any innovative ideas on handling pollution?

I'm having trouble getting my city up to 80+ shields--what are the terrain mods you do to help yourself? All forest?

I appreciate the help, and good luck.

------------------
"...Ain't no smoggy smoke on Rocky Top,
Ain't no telephone bills..."

[This message has been edited by vik (edited January 05, 2000).]

	05-01-2000 23:00									#14
	Got spare money?

Crow, I go to republic as soon as I get it. You should need a 10 or 20% luxury rate (30% for WLTCD) until you get Shakespeare. For the first three routes I look for cities that demand the goods, but if they are too far away and small I may settle for a closer larger city.

Vik, besides the cash bonus you also get a science bonus when you establish a trade route. The amount of beakers you get is the same as the amount of gold you get. Just check your science advisor (F6) before and after you establish the route and see the difference.

For getting 80+ shields build offshore platform, factory, power plant and manufacturing plant. If that still doesn't get you to 80+ you should mine some grass or plains to forest. Build a railroad first; that goes faster on grass/plains than on forest. Such a large production will result in pollution, that's why you have two engineers running around to clean it up.

To deal with the attacks from other civs it's best to make sure they don't become too advanced in science. A fortress with one or two alpine troops in a chokepoint on good defensive terrain should also help.

	05-01-2000 23:30									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

CTG..... sorry i missed the occ game i couldn't connect on my server.... that problem is permanently fixed cause i got CABLE hehehe i am happy now.....

Aurelius i will play you any day and Paul i finally landed in 1893 and could have done earlier but made a few mistakes.... I use MGE and its my first 1800 landing.... ouch i know i suck.....

It felt like this game went almost perfectly so how you ever do better is utterly amazing

------------------
They call me Mr. Fierce

	06-01-2000 00:45									#16
	Got spare money?

Thanks for the advice Paul. I was going over my log and realized how LATE I got democracy. And actually I established 6 trade routes over the course of the game. Is that too many?

This is for my OCC game I'm hosting. We have a total of 3 players right now. I hope you can make it next Tuesday. I'll try to get another player, although it might be easier with only 3. The settings will be discussed before the game and it will be from 2000 to 2200 EST. Thats 1500 to 1700 GMT I think. We can have it for a little later if you need to.

I really want a cable modem .

___
CtG

	06-01-2000 00:58									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I just realized I was playing on my "modified" version of civ2. I feel like such a retard. I made it to make the game HARDER. I made the techs go at 15/10, monarchy pays for 0 units. And I made roads and rivers move 1/2 and an aqueduct needed at 6 and sewer system at 10. I feel so dumb. I thought I should be doing so well. I have to play on my other 2.42, or one of my 4 MGE's ... so thats whats taking all the space on my comp.

Another thing for smarthfart, if you can make the time you can play. The game consists of me, kengel and war4ever. This is so the top 5 should only show 4 cities. Well that might not be so great and we might play with 3 AI , no thats too easy. The settings will be decided before the game. I hope to see you there 15.00 on tuesday.

And one last thing thing for Paul, I'll post logs from an unmodified game. It will have city improvements, techs, I won't include tribute because it will take way too long, and I have some work that I've been procrastinating. Oh well. I hope I can get a good landing time, but of course its not official because its on a four whale map.

Thank you for the advice I will use it wisely.

___
CtG

	06-01-2000 02:44									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Caesar, you can never establish too many trade routes. I always build a caravan/freight whenever a new commodity becomes available.

	06-01-2000 03:19									#19
	Remove this text

Here is the other list as promised. Not much better, but I got screwed with the end techs. It took forever to get computers. Well here it is. I tried to follow your directions. Initially I was doing better but it took me a long time to get Isaacs and Demo. Well thanks again.

4000 Alpha, BW, Masonry, WC
3750 CB
3350 CoL
3300 Map Making
3250 Currency
2650 Pottery
2500 Writing
2000 Colossus
1850 Monarchy
1700 Gov: Monarchy, Temple
1650 Construction
1400 Library, Seafaring
1000 Literacy, Coloseum
875 Marketplace
800 Republic
700 Gov: Republic
625 Trade Route
450 Philosophy, Mathematics
325 Astronomy
200 Copernicus'
150 University
25 Medicine
1 University
20 Engineering, HR, Wheel, Polytheism
80 Theory of Gravity
160 Iron Working, Sanitation
220 Bridge Building
260 Banking
340 Invention
360 Trade Route
380 Sewer System
400 Bank, Democracy
440 Trade Route
520 Chemistry, Gov: Democracy
540 Gunpowder
660 Navigation
740 Physics
780 Steam Engine
820 Isaac Newton's, Railroad
860 Indurialization, Harbor
920 Metallurgy
940 Magnetism
1000 Electricity
1080 Conscription
1140 Economics
1160 Darwins, Explosives, Atomic Theory
1200 Steel
1260 Stock Exchange, Corporation
1360 Electronics
1420 Refrigeration
1480 Feudalism
1520 Refining
1560 Chivalry
1580 Combustion
1620 Automobiles
1660 Superhighways
1670 Monotheism
1700 Nuclear Fission
1730 Leadership
1750 Powerplant, Nuclear Power, Flight
1766 Nuclear Plant
1768 Radio
1776 The Laser
1780 Tactics
1786 Communism
1792 Machine Tools
1798 Advanced Flight
1804 Miniturization
1806 Offshore Platform
1810 Computers
1816 Mobile Warefare
1822 Rocketry
1830 Space Flight
1834 Apollo
1840 Robotics
1842 Manufacturing Plant
1846 Plastics
1850 Fusion Power
1868 Launch
1883 Land

I could have gotten 20 years off if I didn't get all those useless techs so soon. Well I hope you have some helpful hints for me. Thanks again Paul. Get MGE so you can join my OCC game.

	06-01-2000 07:06									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Paul, thanks for your answers to my questions. I would like you or someone else to elaborate on a follow-up I have on the caravans.

After 3 trade routes are established, you told me that additional trade routes give would give me a science bonus as well as a cash bonus.

I was wondering if this science bonus was permanent, or if it's a one-time donation towards the thing you are researching.

If it's a permanent bonus, then it's a great deal, but if it's a one time bonus, it seems like that return would diminish where you're at the point of a new tech discovery every other turn.

thanks

	06-01-2000 07:56									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

No its a one time bonus.Hides caravan fetches 200 gold then you also get 200 beakers.Unless the new route is more lucrative.Then it "replaces" an old route.3 "operating" routes max per city

	06-01-2000 09:28									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

so there is no way of losing a better trade route then??? ie a gold route producing 13trade as opposed to a coal route producing 8trade??

------------------
They Call Me Fierce. Mr. Fierce!

	06-01-2000 09:36									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Smash,

Are you sure about the 200 beaker part of your last post? I've always assumed that the gold was just one time gold and the beakers were related to the three listed trade routes--say 3 or 4 beakers early and 15 or 25 beakers in late year.

I really don't know the answer, but I'd be surprised if the 200 gold were associated with the beakers.

Aurelius the Gold.

	06-01-2000 14:17									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Caesar, this log does have more info, although I'm still missing some things. The start of the game looks very good. In my 1775 record I got Copernicus only one turn before you. I am missing Shakespeare in your log, but since you got medicine in 25 BC and built a university in 1 AD you probably built it after your university? I always like to get Shakespeare and sewer before university so that I can start my WLTCD to size 20 earlier. I also miss the aqueduct in your log; I assume you built it after republic for your first WLTCD to size 12? I would also recommend building marketplace before colosseum unless you are growing so fast that you need it to keep order in your city. After all, the market gives you money, but the colosseum costs money if you build it too early. I also see that you built your temple before library; try to get library first next time unless you grow so fast that you need the temple.

I also notice that you got your first trade route set up earlier this time. The second trade route in your log is 360 AD. I assume that you left out some routes? 360 AD would definitely be too late for your second route.

Also, if you have a good city site after Newton your science should be every two turns. From your log I see that it took you 3 or 4 turns so maybe you should set a higher science rate or get a better city location. A also try to get economics/stock exchange earlier in the game, not too long after Newton. You might also want refrigeration shorter after electricity, or did you just not get it as an option? And it did take you very long to get computers. I always try to get that before flight, but that may also have been a case of not getting it as a research option? This has also delayed your research of robotics/manufacturing plant and the building of your spaceship.

With some more luck in getting the right research options and these hints you should definitely be able to do much better the next time you play OCC.

Vik/Aurelius, when you establish a trade route you also get a one time beaker bonus. Read my post from 13:00 yesterday. That may have less effect later when you get science every two turns, but if the bonus is high enough you can raise your science rate a bit and get a new science in one turn instead of two. That would save a turn on your final result.

	06-01-2000 21:56									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As I understand it, supply and demand only affect the bonus, and not the continuing trade value.

	07-01-2000 00:38									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Sorry Paul but I'm not too good at logs. I actually got Shakespeares around 200 AD. Also I established a second trade route when I researched universite. And I also left out a handfull of techs. I built coloseum the immidiatly an aqueduct. As you can see I was astrayed from the most direct way of research toward the end. But with your advice I have become a much better OCC player. Thanks for you help.

BTW I'm hosting a OCC multiplayer game on Tuesday. I'll be posting some observations I make on the multiplayer board. I know you don't have MGE... so you can't play and your probably don't visit the board. But say around wednesday you might want to take a look and see what the four of us in the game have posted.

___
CtG

	07-01-2000 00:41									#27
	Got spare money?

That's right. That's why especially for your first three trade routes you may ignore demand and just pick some large AI cities.

That was of course a reply to geofelt's post; but Caesar posted before I did.
[This message has been edited by Paul (edited January 06, 2000).]

	07-01-2000 00:42									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

And one last thing Paul, I didn't put in my last post... this isn't trying to increase my post count... I swear... Please Ming don't ban me agai... never mind. Anyway I was wondering if there is a tech path that you live by. I know how things should be built and I generally follow that. I remember someone, possibly you posting something about the tech goals you set?

Could you either rewrite them here or give me a link to that post. I went to your site, nice work on it, and I really couldn't find a short simple list of goals you set. Thanks again. Beat 1800... if anyone can do it you can... or possibly a cheater.

___
CtG

	07-01-2000 00:53									#29
	Remove this text

My OCC strategy guide at http://home.planet.nl/~belt0018/occ.htm has some information you might want to read including a tech path.

	07-01-2000 02:09									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks.