26-02-2001 02:45									#1
	Maximum Map Size? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I remember many folks talking about maximum map size....
I have a 200 X 400..I am working with now..is this the Maximum..that would be recommended??

I set the parameters in the Map..then I launch the game..and alter the terrain as I like...

Just wondering if a Bigger map is feasible?


I am running an Athlon 700 256 Ram..32-Bit NVIDIA GeForce 256 Graphics Card..Although I seem to remember someone telling me that that wasn't a major issue??

Thanks


Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	26-02-2001 07:11									#2
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Are you noticing any irregularities with the AI at that size. In earlier testing the AI wouldn't build roads and that was a real problem. The physical size as I've heard is something like 32000x32000 or something like that.... if the 200x400 works and there are no AI problems then great but that's just what the earlier findings were on two computers.

	27-02-2001 12:26									#4
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Troll,
You heard correctly. Occording to the lead designer of CTP1, in which i asked the question, he said the design team said the game should handle a max size of 32,768x 32768

here is the response

"Dear Brian,

Thank you for taking the time to play our game. I hope you enjoy playing it
as much as we enjoyed making it.

The length of each turn and the size of the map can be edited in CTP data
files.

To change the turn length, open the DiffDB.txt file stored in
ctp_data\default\gamedata. The length of each turn changes for each
difficulty level, so next you need to decide which difficulty level you wish
to change. Now, search for the string: "TIME_SCALE". Notice that time is
divided into different PERIODs. In each PERIOD, time moves at a different
rate. Setting YEARS_PER_TURN to 1 gives you one (1) year per turn.

For map size, find the CONST.TXT file in the same directory. Search this
file for "MAP_SIZE_". You should see one entry:
MAP_SIZE_GIGANTIC 70 140 2
Feel free to edit first two numbers, but leave the "2" alone. Our
programmers assure use that we can support 256x256 in multiplayer and maybe
32768x32768, but we're not certain on that one. Also, your best bet is to
stick to a 1:2 ratio -- I can't guarantee the results if you try other
aspect ratios.

Good luck and enjoy the game.

Yours,

William Westwater
Lead Designer, Civilization: Call To Power"


Hope this helps
Flash

	27-02-2001 17:01									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

SAAAA---WWEEEEEETTTT!!!!


(Kicking floor under computer!!)

I have to head to work now but..WHEN I GET HOME!!!

I am gonna make a REAL, Gigantic,Huge, Obese, Mammoth Map fer my own personal enjoyment!!


Thanks much for the reply folks!!

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	28-02-2001 05:45									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well..Good news and Bad news..here goes...


First:

I tried above mentioned dimensions..32000 X 32000..Crashed to desktop..(That was in fact from CTP:1..NOT CTP:2..BTW)

I went all the way down to 250 X 500..with 8 Civ's which keps in line with the 1:2 ratio..described above...I had incrementally gone down..and got where it would not crash to deskyop..when I kept the dimensions under 1000 on each side..but it was SO SLOW!!..worse than an MP Game..and I tried 8 Civs's..and then 5 Civ's..but would take upward of 1-2 Min's.. per turn!!

Ok..a 250 X 500 with 8 civ's works ok..with 4-5 sec delay..I went up to 4 cities..built..through ruin search..or building in quere...and am going to try a game with this..

F.Y.I...if you go to Launch Editor and in Empire screen...where you can put in parameters to find a location on map..you can't exceed a three digit #...(i.e...say you wanted to find x=455 and y=980..the map will then proceed to that location when you press LOCATE..beside that area..but you couldn't say put in a location of say 1105 by 1500..)


I also followed the tweaking of turns...to make it where it would only make a year per turn go by..to make a longer game!!


Ok..I will keep you posted....Hope this works..as I wanted a Longer Naval Game..and am HEADED Toward making
it where I can also have a HUGE World..where both Naval and Land Battles take place..so I will keep you posted and as previously stated in Earlier posts..I AM NOT NOR DO I CLAIM To be a MODDER SUPREME..However..I am a 41 Year old with drive,determination and indomitable spirit as to keep pressing forward...TWEAKING,EDITING and also EXPERIMENTING!!

Hey..I am crawling whereas an expert such as Omnigod..or Harlan..or Wes..can whip right through these things...Heck..I'll keep posting and perhaps will learn enough to be a Half-decent Hacker...er...um..Modder!!


As allways..Thanks for all the help and assistance!!

Later

Troll


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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	28-02-2001 07:19									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ok..Update.....


I decided to go with 5 Civ's..(4 AI plus mine)

I am at turn 46..I have 7 cities...13 units..and as previously stated..am running at 1 year per turn..this is great..I am looking at my EXPLORED REGION..and yes Oh Yes..it is small in size compared to map..but vast in traveled area at this point!!..I feel like a true Discoverer..an implementer of a true Great Civilization...I shall indeed attempt to reach out to those i encounter..and with Diplomatic strides..ensure the Growth of each Individual Civilization..However my people have spoken they want..no..demand..no..rather INSIST..and IMPLORE me to Go forth and Spread my Kingdom Far and Wide..such as the Roman Kingdom of yesteryear...with Mongolian...and Hun-like thirst..alas...I feel like a little bit of Wizard of Oz...seeking that which is yet unkown..not yet manifested...not yet attained..but firm belief..I will quench the desires of my masses.....

Now..back to The Conquest of my World......


Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	28-02-2001 11:06									#8
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Troll:
Good to hear you're having fun modding. Good luck with it. You'll find that once you get started modding the rest of it comes quickly. It's just getting started.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

	01-03-2001 00:21									#9
	Tired of ads?

My 2 cents - I love smaller maps, myself. I play on medium size with five civs. That gives me a good chance of falling over another civ VERY early in the game. Since I love hoplite battles and triremes, it really gives a great game.



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Bluevoss-

	02-03-2001 00:21									#10
	Got spare money?

One thing you want to keep in mind when going with excessively large maps is game speed. Keep in mind that not only do the starting turns take longer but when you get into a very long game it will be even slower. Larger maps usually means larger empires for everyone. The more cities you have the more units you can support. The more units the game has to keep track of and move the slower the game will get. It also spreads the empires out more so combat is less likely early in the game which also leads to large empires. Huge empires take away alot of the balance issues associated with the game. With massive ammounts of cities you don't need to address balance issues nearly as much since you should end up with excesses in gold and science. It also allows you to absorb most of the problems you run into in keeping your empire intact. Losing 1 city out of 40 is not nearly as important as losing 1 city out of 20. This is especially true if you go through and tweak the max cities threshold for the governments.

To me huge megamaps are the equivilant of always playing on super mineral rich maps in Starcraft. Part of the challenge of the game is managing limited resources to achieve your goal.

What you do with your own game is fine, just don't blame the 'weak ai' when you are able to roll over everything and win every game after you rig it to ignore normal balance issues that the AI is programmed to consider regardless of the map size.

My 2 cents.
[This message has been edited by Jerk (edited March 01, 2001).]

	02-03-2001 04:40									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I promise you this..I wont call the AI weak..or useless..or whatever most folks do..

I am as you have read..playing a Humongus map..with 5 civs total..plus mine..that being me..4 AI..plus Barbarians..I tweaked and am now looking at more tweaking..and yes sir..I will address AI issue..but as of now I am still a Babe in the Modding Woods!!

But i do assume the more tweaking I do..the more different the shipped game acts or should I say RE-acts!


But you see my friend I slaughtered the AI..in Shipped version..so I figured..(And I assure you I dont mean to be terse with you!!)..I payed $49.00 or so..(I forget??)so I might as well try configuring..RE-configuring..to see what I come out with..and if it doesnt do the way I want then I shall simply retreat..or at worse case..(It really is only a game..so not too bad my friend!)..I shall un-install and re-install..!!

But Thanks for your reply and happy Hunting my friend...

BTW..I do "Roll Over" most game I play..but again..I thank you for your input..

Happy Civin!!


Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	02-03-2001 05:08									#12
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Go Troll!

Personally, I'm waiting for the day where the AI is good enough to handle a huge empire with a standing army etc that it attacks with.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

	02-03-2001 10:27									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

There's an interesting conundrum here. Exploration of unknown terrain is a lot of fun, but conquering vast sprawling AI civs can be quite boring. So is it possible to have huge maps and ALSO restrict the size of AI civs?

Over in the Civ2 forums, a clever fellow learned that AI civs found cities only on two specific types of terrain. Looking deeper, he found this is related to an underlying piece of information in the map code. We're talking hex editing here, not messing with the rules file. He then ginned up a cool tool that allows one to develop maps in which the AI will only build cities on preselected sites. This would be a marvelous solution to the huge map dilemma. Of course a Civ2 solution may have little application in CTP2, but it's something you guys might want to explore a little further.

In my limited CTP2 play I've been amazed at the AI's willingness to found cities ANYWHERE, and it sure would be nice to impose some limitations on that process.

	02-03-2001 17:01									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Thanks Kull

My "Ultimate purpose"..when I get done..or perhaps I may never "get done"..but rather a "waypoint"..if you will..is to take advice and guideance from fellow civers..then also do some tweaking and exploration throught he different files..to make a HUGE EMPIRE Conquest..

I have found this so far...

1)..Ai has kept up so far in rankings with me

2)I have put on Bloodlust..with 1 year per turn so as we get to all this science and then have plenty of years to "Engage"..if you will a "World Domination Tour"

3)I had increase Gold found in Huts..and AI has found as many..if not more than I..being able to complete a few Wonders in 3-4 turns..

4)The reason I wanted to make this big of a map was so I and AI could build a pretty good empire w/o feeling threatened..then attack/defend/conquer/trade/whatever..later in our life!

I'm off to work..will update soon!

Troll

------------------
If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	03-03-2001 00:02									#15
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Troll,
Actually, I've been contemplating the use of Omni's SuperWorld map. The thing is going to be huge. So it would seem if it is usable and I think it will be awesome, You may be forced to use upwards of 28 civs to make things more historic and interesting. Huge Empires are going to be standard. True World wars more of a possibility in modern ages. New Mods are inevitable going to be made for it.
The main problem is going to be memory. I'm planing to update my memory to 256 or 384 MB. But What a prospect.
All I'm saying is I'm a big fan of big maps. I like the challenge and possibilities. Just remember the only real drawbacks of making very large maps are memory and possibly a very good video card. (I can only imagine what speed and memory requirements Omni's map will need in later stages. Play testing will be interesting.....)

__________________________________________________
________________________

Flash
[This message has been edited by Flash (edited March 02, 2001).]

	03-03-2001 05:27									#16
	Got spare money?

Flash

I have a 32 bit NVIDIA GeForce 256 Graphics Card with 256 RAM...Athlon 700 and I tried Palpatines 28 civ map..I got bogged down after 100 turns..to make it 2-3 min between turns..

My map is doing great so far with 5 civs plus barbarians..

I felt similiar to your logic..I could build up a great empire..then once I get a more mature civilization I shall "Expand"

And I am still in Testing and Editing phase..so I am aware of potential areas to quantify if they are at all feasible!

Troll



------------------
If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	03-03-2001 06:27									#17
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Here is the reason to get a P4 1.5Ghz with 2Gig Ram... That's my goal Then I can really play...

	03-03-2001 13:44									#19
	Suffering from ads?

Troll,
Wow, your computer is better than mine. I didn't realize it would bog down that bad. What a wake up call. How big of a map have you tested?

Omni,
I may have to wait on the p4, I only have a 400 Mhz AMD-k6 2. You actually think the P4 will be very effective? Another question, the preview map jpeg is 1000 x 500, how close is it completed if I comvert it to 256 color and then convert it to a map?

Flash

	03-03-2001 18:44									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Flash


My map is 250 X 500..islands more so than continent..although at that size it still makes great land bodies!

I had tried bigger but no dice to slow!

I have 5 civs.(Mine and 4 ai's PLUS Barbarians)

All is moving ok through 83 turns..

Ai is keeps up so far so good..


Troll



------------------
If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	04-03-2001 10:54									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Not quite sure what you're asking Flash.... the map is complete... and ready to convert into maps... I've already started... but I have a feeling that's not what you're asking... care to clear it up for me

	04-03-2001 12:03									#22
	Suffering from ads?

OMNI,
If say 256 MB RAM and 32 to 64 MB video memory and a fast processor aren't enough for the proper use of SuperLarge maps (2-3 min turns), Do you think a p4 will be more effective.

On your preview map, will it convert okay with the Bmp2ctp2 (it is roughly 1000 x 500)?

Are your sub maps that you are releasing to scale with each other if one were to try to put it together by hand with the mapeditor?

Troll,
Good to hear about your results. Does kinda bum me out on the slowdown, but I guess it is the price we pay for fun and Empire. LOL

Flash

	04-03-2001 12:34									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

No they are not to scale... That's definately not the best way to get it distributed... I hopefully in the next few days find time to split the map into 16 sections and using the new website that is still to be finished (transfer of all data from homestead to the much larger website) I will post the map. Today I just added the major rivers of the world to the main map and all future map releases will have rivers in them. And BTW the maps, even the whole thing, convert nicely with the bmp2ctp2 program.. it's just loading the whole map that crashes the system... I've not tried a 1000x500 map so I can't speculate if it'd load properly but it converts without a problem.

As for the P4, I'm not sure if it'd really improve it but dam I'd like one
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited March 04, 2001).]

	05-03-2001 13:25									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Omni,
I converted your preview map to a bmp, it is 1000 x 500. My problem is getting the bmp2ctp2 program to work. my file folder is c:\bmp2ctp\
from there I'm not sure what the command line should look like. I changed the BMPtoCTP2 To BMP2CTP2.

Any help would be appreciated.

Flash

BTW, If you have an update in the 1000x 500 size I would like to see it.

	05-03-2001 20:01									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Greetings

Sorry I have been slow in responding..been in Hospital for a virus treatment..feeling a bit better now..

I have played 100 turns..

All seems ok so far..

Ai is keeping up..and trying to infiltrate my region...


Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	06-03-2001 04:09									#26
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Ok..another update

116 turns..

Ok..I lost 14 cities despite my best efforts do to unhappiness associated with too many cities threshold..I only adjusted corporate republic to reflect a 200 cities threshold..next time maybe I will give me 1 more early govt with a larger cities capacity!

I now have Corporate Republic and all is swell..(I had to build lots of happiness improvements so when I enacted cor. rep. + happ. improvs. I went GREEN Big Time!)

I have now met two of the ai's..

The French and the Germans.

Both are about the normal when you first meet..

The Germans are and have been steadily on my six in science..although I lead in economics..I am dead last in military. I shall overcome this as I build up my economy to support this!

Will keep you posted..just wanted you folks to know how things were going!

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

The Forum Fur Flyer

	06-03-2001 08:55									#27
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Troll,
Thanks for the update. Have you experienced the AI road building bugs that Omni reported? You said something very interesting in a previous post. You noticed the xy values were only 3 digits. That means the max is 1000x 1000 (1,000,000 tiles). I'm keeping that in mind. When you were playing around with map sizes, did you find a map size problem relating to the xy numbers?

Flash

	07-03-2001 00:29									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I also love Monster size maps, however when generating maps larger than 140 by 280, I find that the random map generator seems to somehow loose it's place in building a continent and fills the oceans completly with Islands. I have tried changing the variables in the Const.txt to no avail. When the map get too big for the random generator then you just get islands everywhere. Any thoughts?