19-03-2000 10:27									#1
	Naval Strength Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have lately noticed that most of my ships in Civ2 lack veteran status. I usually don't bother putting Port Facilities in my cities, as veteran status rarely seem to matter (only a few of the European civs and Americans ever seem to bother with strong navies when they're controlled by the AI anyway).

What about any of you?



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	18-03-2000 23:26									#2
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No, I typically don't bother with building vet ships. Just one naval battle will usually make that unit a vet anyway.

	19-03-2000 00:33									#3
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The Lighthouse will give you a veteran Navy in the early game. If you don't have this wonder, have your "green" ships look for easy kills at first, so they become vets. In the later stages of the game build Port Facilities - they are not expensive. The difference between a vet battleship and raw one is 18 - 12 (attack and defence)

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SG (2)

	19-03-2000 06:08									#4
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especially important in MP is the vet trireme.... they can absorb hideous amounts of damage from green triremes as i found out the hard way gr..... Ming

	19-03-2000 23:32									#5
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And if you can make vet ironclads before people can build coastal fortresses....look out any coastal cities. Xin has demonstrated this one to me on many occasions.

RAH

	20-03-2000 02:02									#6
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yes Rah good point.... in fact iron clads against anything less than gunpowder units is a joke and cetain death Muskets have a rough time against vet ironclads too

	20-03-2000 05:33									#7
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A veteran navy is not that important but complete domination of the seas is. Just build frigates and clads like crazy, and you'll be okay.

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	20-03-2000 06:00									#8
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I have no clue because I HATE naval battles and most mp games don't really get that far anyways.

	20-03-2000 12:01									#9
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Sea dominion is very important for the simple fact that if you control the seas a) you can bombard the enemy's shores, and land troops, and b) he/she can't do it to you. This gives you initiative (I should also mention it depends on the land:sea ration in the game). This makes veteran sea units important, and before port facilities the best thing to build is (ready?) Sun Tzu's War Academy.

But that only affects land units, you say? Wrong. It states in the manual (and gameplay will prove) that "ANY unit that survives combat AUTOMATICALLY becomes veteran". So what you do is take your non-vet frigates and ironclads and go trolling for units on the coastline. Look for weak units (outdated ancient units are good; settlers, explorers, engineers too) to bombard and your ship will take minimal damage and become veteran! Now send it out to take control of the seas, or maybe bombard some more.

	20-03-2000 18:23									#10
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Yes Theban, I've used that one many times. I send my tirenes out to unoccupied areas and search for barb kings. Money and vet status with minimal risk. In the early game (as pointed out already) vets rule the sea.
It is also excellent for the super iron clad strategy.

RAH

	21-03-2000 10:23									#11
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War4ever, I must disagree with you, as I did with Sieve Too, in another thread...musketeers, for me are the only units that the AI DOESN'T clobber...it seems to me that mine outperform my riflemen and Alpine troops even!...the AI ironclads, come sniffing around, and usually vanish when they smell musket-oil...true,during "hostilities",I've routinely placed a pair, fortified, usually behind city walls, and, if possible, coastal fortresses, but, then, isn't that according to Hoyle? (or von Clausewitch)

	21-03-2000 10:57									#12
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In my SP games, I love to have an overpowering Navy. Especially later in the game. Magellan's is a must because it never expires +2movement! I find that once you've got controll of the high seas, you'll never experience a sizeable invasioninto your soil.
I'll kick it off with frigates/galleon. But as soon as I get Electricity, I'll start my modern naval armada. Costal bombardment with a battleship is almost guarenteed to give you that city. Let the invasion begin there. AEGIS's are a must later. We all know about the AI's tendancy to use a bit of overkill with cruise-missles. BTW if you stack a vet. AEGIS with a battleship, which will take the brunt of the missile attack?

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[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited March 22, 2000).]

	21-03-2000 01:15									#13
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George: I'll gladly swap my Musketeers for your Alpines any day!

Much as I like the vet Ironclad strategy, the window for it is relatively small. In SP, the AI is so inept that you simply don't need much of a navy at all to win. Transports plus a few Destroyers/Cruisers escorts are usually enough.

	21-03-2000 02:26									#14
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The bigger (more resource) the ship, the more of a waste it is to not make it a vet.
Yeah you can cruise around till you pop an unsuspecting unit off the shore to accomplish this, but for me port facilities are the only way to go, especially on the bigger ships.
All I need to do now is figure out how to get to Bach's, dominate the seas, trade, and get Hoover Dam. Dam!? can't have it all I guess

	21-03-2000 03:18									#15
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I totally agree with Crustacian. I haven't had any navy at all in my recent games and miss it. When a navy is needed, port facilities are a must, but only if you have the time and funds to build them, which is almost always. I learned my lessen the hard way. I know I'm not the only one to build a non-vet battleship, only to have it destroyed by three cruisers a turn after it leaves port, right? Vet status is crucial for ship defense. When I build a ship, I need it ready for battle now. I don't have time to look for a barb leader or horseman to knock off.

	21-03-2000 03:28									#16
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you would take muskets over alpines or rifleman????? you have got to be joking....

Muskets which arent' vets are routed at times on normal terrain by crusaders..... i have never lost a rifleman to a crusader on regular terrain.

Domination of the seas i see as more important in MP than SP seeing as the ai is so dumb.

I once had a large lead over an opponent and was thwarted by him because he dominated the seas..... this later changed but what could have been a fast easy victory took until i developed howies instead of calvalry ..... all because he owned the seas..... i couldnt get my ships anywhere. He destroyed all of them with the extra movement from Magellens.

	21-03-2000 05:24									#17
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There are three main advantages of having a powerful navy.
1) It is much harder for any civ to attack you, especially on your home continent.
2) You can continue to trade on different continents in relative security. (Whatever the game - trade, trade, trade!)
3) Naval bombardment ignores city walls. (It is far easier for the spy to bring down the coastal fortress than the city walls) Very often there are key cities that seem to be inland, yet built next to a lake. The construction of a "strategic city" - on the other side of the lake, will allow you to bring your fleet into the centre of continents, with a nasty surprise for the occupants!

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SG (2)

	21-03-2000 13:42									#18
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So a good navy is a must... ok. Now, how about some tactics.

This is for anyone and everyone.

Do you send ships out alone? Do you form small (or large) battle groups? If a ship is damaged - do you limp home or repair at sea? How do you search for subs? Do you use subs? This could be an interesting thread.

	21-03-2000 15:51									#19
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ok, case #1. green fleet is attacking. green transports are trying to land but must go through blue ships. of course green wouldnt know about the subs. how would you defend or attack?
http://www.i2k.com/~density/ships.jpg

case 2: blue battleships against green ships. again, subs would be hidden. would you attack blue battleships or run?
http://www.i2k.com/~density/ships2.jpg

case 3: same pic only green fleet has a bit more fire power - how does this change things?
http://www.i2k.com/~density/ships3.jpg


case #4: green against blue with some land. who has the advantages? what would you do for both?
http://www.i2k.com/~density/ships4.jpg


vet or not, how would that change things. not saying this is how you would start (as far as placement goes) - but, this is what you have. how does movement change things (if someone has better movement)?


[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited March 21, 2000).]

	21-03-2000 16:17									#20
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I think your question implies the answer - none, but just to be clear - How many cruise missiles on each sub?

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	22-03-2000 08:34									#21
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Hmmm, if I was playing the green fleet, in most if not all these scenarios I would choose "hasty retreat" as soon as I saw the masts of those battleships on the horizon. When it comes to grappling with those behemoths, the best weapon is Mechanized Infantry. Sitting in a city behind a Coastal Fortification, of course.

Unless I had a very pressing need to lock horns with those battleships, "discretion is the better part of valor" would carry my day. In each of your scenarios. victory could only come, if at all, at the cost of most or all of the green vessels. Possible exception: in the first scenario, if the target coastline was close enough, the fast transports might be able to make a dash while the Aegii screen them. Otherwise, no way would I risk loaded transports in the vicinity of an enemy battlewagon.
[This message has been edited by mindseye (edited March 21, 2000).]

	22-03-2000 10:46									#22
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I probably shouldn't even be commenting, since I have only built a few modern ships... but after saying that, I find that in the games I play (SP Diety RH Small world) that I can usually conquer the cities/civs on "my" continent, and then either on the east coast or the west coast there is one or more sites where my transports will be able to get across the ocean and unload my tanks or cavalry etc. With the two movement units, they can then head inland so they won't be blown away by enemy battleships. Or, if I have been able to get a spy over there I locate the fortresses and load up my Mech Inf and others into those fortified areas; they will easily defeat the destroyers and sometimes cruisers. And being in fortresses, only one is killed, leaving the rest of the stack to attack the next turn. If no spy has scouted out the land, I may put two engineers on board to do an instant fortress for the two movement units to hole up in.

The thing I rely on then, is taking the enemy cities, and forcing the disbanding of the naval units they have supported by the city I have just overrun. In a recent game, I had gotten several transports full of my tanks, etc. into a fortressed area outside of the city radius' of the enemy during the cease fire they offered when I captured one of the last cities on "my" continent. Then when I was ready to attack about 6 to 8 of their coastal and inland cities, I looked in the cheat file to see what their navy was.
They had 10 destroyers, 7 cruisers, 13 Aegis, 3 battleships and 6 submarines and 6 transports. When I overran 6 of the coastal and 2 inland cities, I looked again at the Civ defense advisor screen using the cheat.
Now they had 2 destroyers, 1 cruiser and 1 transport. All the rest had been lost to them by virtue of having no support when their home city was overrun by my loyal tanks and MI's. So at least in that game, I had no real reason to have to build a Navy. Good civing to all.

	22-03-2000 11:12									#24
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i think he meant as a check to see if all the ships were from one or two cities.... if so he is correct to state that the ai builds its navies in one or two cities.... if not then he cheated but in all honesty ... who cares its his game to play

	22-03-2000 11:51									#25
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MWHC:

1.I'd have AEGIS scoping out the waters ahead, eventually flanking the subs. You'll lose 'em the next turn, so bring the others up from the hind. Advance the battleship diagonally SE so as to have him in range for the next turn, assisted by the extra AEGIS.

2. Head for Port! Flank speed ahead!

3.This indeed changes things...I'd fight only if I had a sizeable replacement fleet, or the ability to build one. I'd merge the fleet on the first turn, moving to whichever side is closer to home. Then, when the battleships come close, strike first with subs, AEGIS then regulation cruisers. I don't belive this battle could be a complete victory. I'd hope to kill 2 battleships, and wound the third.

4. Blue-battleship moves betwwen small island, attacks AEGIS 2nd turn. AEGIS move due west, engaging the subs, 2nd turn as well.
Green-Merge fleet to face battleship first at the waterway by little island. Looking to knock out the big one here, AEGIS is secondary.

Arrr Matey!

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[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited March 22, 2000).]

	23-03-2000 00:17									#26
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I’m interested that some of you guys think that a navy is a luxury! OK, on a small map, with a large landmass, there is little you can achieve by having a large fleet. However, on the larger maps, the navy is essential. Perhaps I am missing something, so please tell me a more efficient way to play on a large waterworld!

In answer to some of the questions raised by MWHC:

1) Warships can go out alone when I’m ahead in the naval techs. If nobody else has discovered steam engine the ironclad fears nothing. However, convoys are always provided for boats with caravans – barb protection mainly.
2) When other civs have equal research, I prefer warships to hunt in packs of three. The warship at the back of the pack will usually escort (stack) a boat (caravel/galleon/transport) with dips or spies. Intelligence is important when charting unknown lands.
3) Damaged vessels could take centuries to limp home. Better to bribe a city so repairs can be done where the action takes place.
4) Unless there is a compelling reason, I don’t build subs. Their movement is poor, their defence lousy, and they can’t attack troops on land. Most of the time the navy should be killing ground units, they only kill ships when another navy gets in the way!

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SG (2)

	23-03-2000 02:08									#27
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Yes, but what about VET subs? My experience has been that they are very effective against some of the bigger boys, especially when traveling in groups of 3 like your own naval forces. Combined with the fact that they are able to carry rocket and nuke units, invisible 50% of the time, & relatively inexpensive, I would think that any serious navy would be glad to have them.

	23-03-2000 03:11									#28
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The only problem with nukes in subs is because they are so expensive, and the AI sees missles in your ships (nuke or cruise), and subs are so weak defensively they almost always get killed by the AI pre-launch.

Take a good look when you've finished moving a sub with rockets in it. The sleeping missle is on the top of the stack, right in the middle of the water. Even though the AI ships shouldn't see the subs, their planes and warships certainly see the sleeping missile, and will kill it at all costs.

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	23-03-2000 05:34									#29
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I have, a number of times, been able to bring a sub right up to the AI coast line and drop in a number of nukes. Other ships, aegis, battle ships... get hit with countless cruise missiles. Are you sure the AI can see missiles on subs?? It seems like they can not - or am I just getting lucky?

	23-03-2000 07:12									#30
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Bohlen -Vet subs are fine, if they work well in your games – an attack of 15 must always be respected. My main reservation about subs is that they can only attack ships – not land units. Naval power is more about conquering cities and continents than sinking boats. From the dawn of the Ironclad Age onwards, my version of the naval conquest routine could be summed up as follows:

1) Pick an enemy. If the civ is still in Monarchy have the hunting group of warships kill one defender (no more - you don’t want to kill troops you will soon own) in two or three coastal towns. Wait a turn to see if any riot. (Martial Law broken) If they do – bribe them. With luck you should be able to establish a foothold on the territory. When you take over the city you will not be able to buy any units because of civil disorder. However, you can buy city walls (or any other city improvement) if none are present. For other forms of government blast away at the defenders and move in a boatload of troops.
2) Repeat this procedure for all the other coastal cities. With no ports – your enemy has no navy. In the meantime your navy moves on to the next opponent.
3) Don’t worry too much about the interior cities. They will fall in time. In many cases its worth keeping a few (particularly if republic or demo) for trading purposes. On many occasions I have kept a city alive for a repeating commodity to finance the war elsewhere.
4) Don’t delay in researching Espionage. Spies are vital as the game progresses. After Metallurgy is widely available, you must check out the ports for coastal fortresses, and note the ships that the city supports – so you have some expectation of enemy naval strength.
5) Target cities are always coastal capitals or places that have useful wonders.
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SG (2)