26-03-2000 02:22									#1
	Best use for a Diplomat/Spy Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Its seems most people would think steal tech/sabatoge/convert would be the best use of them. I rather think the "inspect city" is the most useful. Knowing what defenses a city has is essential to bringing it down.

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	26-03-2000 03:01									#2
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Masterbob i agree with you, but i think establishing an embassy is even better if you dont have one yet.....

	26-03-2000 03:06									#3
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I love the intel you receive from diplo/spys.
But, my favorite nasty thing involves spies and paratroopers. Plant a nuke and drop a chute. Yee haaa i once took over a whole continent in one turn that way!

	26-03-2000 03:54									#4
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So you started global warming!
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SG (2)

	26-03-2000 05:43									#5
	Remove this text

Wellllll lets just say the gator population was growing!

	26-03-2000 06:42									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

OR the gator population WOULD have grown were it not for that nasty radiation poisoning...



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	26-03-2000 07:13									#7
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Oh no!!! these gators would actually mutate like one of those 50's sci fi flix. You know. Radiation from nuke tests in desert cuase giant ants, locust, rabbits etc etc. Gee I wonder if a spy could bribe one of those giant green things??? Hay Mr Gator
ive got a tractor trailor over here full of chicken! Want to join our side???

[This message has been edited by Neon Deon (edited March 25, 2000).]

	26-03-2000 08:26									#8
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I think the ability to turn attackers into defenders is the diplomat's most effective use.

	26-03-2000 12:58									#9
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Smash good point but in reality , how many people dont stack units after they have lost one or two to dips

	27-03-2000 10:35									#10
	Put an end to popups!

I'll take a long, hard look at the other civ's cash on hand before I start stacking units--if there's no fortress handy (and if it's a siege you need lots more than one), your stacked units will be cannon fodder--literally.

	27-03-2000 03:10									#11
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War-thats just it.The mere presence of diplomats greatly influences military strategy in MP

	27-03-2000 03:27									#12
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Smash i agree thouroughly.... dips really are a nasty unit..... and greatly change the perception of conflict..... i am always disappointed that the big guns so to speak , cannons and other single move units aren't used much on offense civ is all about x2 move troops

	27-03-2000 03:48									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sad but true.I know I've spent alot of time trying to figure a way to get next to cities with pre worked settlers,cats or cannon.Against even fair players this is tough.If you stack em,they kill em.If you don't, they bribe em.I've seen clever players have as many defenders as population and no walls on purpose.When you do manage to get a city,it is destroyed.The Warrior has their work cut out for them against humans in this game.

	27-03-2000 06:20									#14
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again Smash i agree with you.... my monicker is not the way i play against humans anymore due to the above problems of warfare. Tech just comes far too rapidly to make many units usefull. The window of opportunity is small in all of the ages.....

However, give me the chance to pounce on an opponent who is weak and they are done for...

Civ is about three things to me nowadays....
1) know your position..... ie which route to take.... no point researching the same techs as your opponent(s) if your not going to make it to the wonders first.
2)Expansion.... yes perfectionist players can win games..... but the player with more cities generally will have higher trade, science, shields and therefore a better long term opportunities. Dont stop building until there is no room left to build... then set up your cities accordingly.... ie rim cities to the war front and your core cities to perfection. And expansion is not all about ics either.....
3)Trade..... it wins all games that get past AD.... caravans are mucho important for wonders and trade routes.... even with war, save one spot on a boat for a caravan... you wont be disappointed trust me on this one

	27-03-2000 06:34									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Taking a city has never been an easy task. IE: Troy(if u believe Homer), Tyre, Constantinople, Richmond, Stalingrad. And the cities that fell... Lets just say there wasnt much left. The General Sherman method is the only one I employ. After all it his territory you are burning not yours.) I pillage everything in sight using cheap horse and diplos to break his zones of control too. It is a shame about cats and cannons. I suppose you could change them to ignore city walls. After all they were used primarly as siege weapons.

	27-03-2000 06:46									#16
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I heard somewhere that General Sherman didn't raze Atlanta; the city's inhabitants did it themselves to prevent Sherman's troops form making use of it. Can anybody confirm or deny?

	27-03-2000 14:16									#17
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my suggestion for civ3 is that dips can bribe units but not cities and spys can bribe cities as an option like planting the nuke.... and with reprecussions as well.... it should be a hard thing to do

	27-03-2000 14:47									#18
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MM:


Sherman occupied Atlanta in Sept. of 1864. The sole purpose of his mission was to lay waste to Georgia crushing its war economy in
the process. He even sent a letter to the Mayor of Atlanta stating his purpose to evacute the city of all its citizens. While not stating directly his intention to raze the city, it was self evident. After the citzens were evacuted in Sept. of 1864 Sherman burned Atlanta to the ground and began his infamous march to the sea.


[This message has been edited by Neon Deon (edited March 27, 2000).]

	27-03-2000 14:50									#19
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[quote]Originally posted by Neon Deon on 03-27-2000 04:47 AM
MM:


Sherman occupied Atlanta in Sept. of 1864. The sole purpose of his mission was to lay waste to Georgia crushing its war economy in
the process. He even sent a letter to the Mayor of Atlanta stating his purpose to evacute the city of all its citizens. While not stating directly his intention to raze the city, it was self evident. After the citzens were evacuted in Sept. of 1864 Sherman burned Atlanta to the ground and began his infamous march to the sea.


"War is Hell" W.T. Sherman Sept. 1864

	28-03-2000 10:55									#20
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#1 on the list for the best use of dips/spies is to use them to ignore the enemy Zones of Control (ZOC). They are the only unit that has this feature. You can nuke conventionally. Howies, bombers, and naval assaults can get around the city walls issue. Capture a city and you can steal tech. Just think how radically different the game would be if you actually had to attack stacked and fortified troops on mountains next to a road to gain passage into the heart of an enemy civ. With a few dips you can show the troops your hall pass and walk your entire army right up to the front door of the enemy's capital building!!!

	27-03-2000 23:09									#21
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Inca - Caravans, Freight and Partisans are also units that ignore enemy zones of control.
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SG (2)

	28-03-2000 00:21									#22
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and explorers

	28-03-2000 01:58									#23
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Thanks for the info! I never risk caravans/freight in the war zones so I never really noticed that. I don't think I've ever made a partisan unit and I've made maybe one explorer just for kicks.

OK, in light of that new info, I change my answer for best use of a diplo/spy to: Establish Embassies.

The diplomatic benefits of an embassy are huge in v2.42 and are still decent in MGE. If allied, you can pursue an alternate tech than your ally is pursuing and work a trade. I also like knowing who is warring upon whom. There not much that is more enjoyable than paying others to fight your wars for you while you develop unmolested!

	30-03-2000 01:18									#24
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Well, I'd have to go with the ability for a dip/spy to destroy city improvements. Yes, bribing is very powerful, but destroying a coastal fortress while one of your vet battleships is sitting outside the city is invaluable. With enough spies and a nice network of roads or rail, any city is able to be conquered in only one turn. Boom! There goes the temple; Boom! There goes the factory; Boom! There go the city walls. Attack!

Is destroying improvements the most underrated ability of the dip/spy?

	30-03-2000 01:47									#25
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No.Not at all.The ability to sabotage is kinda ridiculous.There is no realistic way of stopping it.A transport of dips can pretty much destroy a city.It seems terribly unfair sometimes.One player can spend centuries building good strong cities and another can build nothing but dips and tear it all down in 1 or 2 turns.BRUTAL

but how else do you get those walls?The dip should have been limited to walls and maybe "minor" improvements such as temple,library and market.

	30-03-2000 02:49									#26
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Now there's a good idea! Dips limited to sabotage of certain improvements, spies limited to sabotage of some more improvements than dips. Perhaps vet status opens up some additional sabotage opportunites for each unit as well. Add that to the Civ3 List of Improvements and I'll use my remaining vote on it! Or how about 1 sabotage/turn at a standard difficulty, and the 2nd sabotage/turn is much more difficult and so forth. Then your 6 diplomats can't reduce a city to rubble, they might only blow up 2 things because of the increased sabotage difficulty factor. Maybe I'll just put that in a bottle and toss it into the sea, hoping some Civ3 designer goes sailing....

	30-03-2000 04:26									#27
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Yeah, I was in a game with Bird where I had a city two squares from one of his major cities. Three vet spies a turn would go in and destroy 3 improvements, and successfully return to the city to destroy 3 more the next turn, etc etc. 90 shields on my part destroyed every improvement in the city. It just didn't seem fair. I like the concept of limiting the number of improvements that could be sabotaged in any one city.

RAH
And those wrascally ferrets.

	30-03-2000 04:42									#28
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or increase the defensive thwarting ability of spies in the home city. If a vet spy at home reduced the chance of a successful sabotage...

	30-03-2000 07:22									#29
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I like the diplo bomb tactic. Even just one diplomat can cause problems for someone. Even a diplo every 5 or 6 turns will keep that city rebuilding a barracks.

I do agree with Sten Sture! Diplos/spies can only defend against stealing techs. This is sorry. If they can defend against someone sneaking in to steal info than they should be able to defend against someone sneaking in with a bomb. The more diplos/spies defending the better also it should be.

[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited March 29, 2000).]

	31-03-2000 10:46									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Dosen't a resident spy make a city harder to bribe?