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Exile is offline Exile
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Sep 2000
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Question  Old Post 16-03-2001 20:09
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There are so many quality scenarios available out there. Recently, there have been several attempts to play multiplayer scenarios. The MGE-type multiplayer is one method. Play-by-email is another. Either one is ok, and suits the needs of different folks. But which scenarios are good candidates for multiplay? This seemed to me a facile question until I started to think about it.

If a group of players use the PBEM method, the individuals playing can take their time, plan well, and aren't rushed. If they take too long to do so, however, interest in the game can falter, especially if there are unexplained delays. The MGE-type multiplay seems reasonable, especially if everyone agrees to time limits. That way a good number of turns can elapse in a single sitting and hopefully, maintain interest among the players. The shorter the time limit; the less likely interest will abate.

Then there is the equally important question of suitable scenarios. Most of us seem to prefer historical scenarios. But some, if not most, historical scenarios are, by the nature of history, unbalanced in the favor of one or more civs. Additionally, many scenario designers create with the idea that their games will be played mostly solo, so they compensate in ways that are geared to keep the scenario challenging for the solo player. So which scenarios do others think are suitable for multiplay, and why?

I put my opinions here; I prefer scenarios that contain large numbers of cities, so that administration of the "empire" is the principal concern. Also, if one loses a city or two, it has less impact than losing, say, one of your total of four cities! This latter case spells disaster; the former is only an imposition which can be remedied, perhaps later in the game. But having large numbers of cities means that time limits are especially constraining. Others have expressed the preference for small numbers of cities for any single civ, with the idea that they want to quickly maximize the production potential and lumber off to war as rapidly as possible.

Some scenarios that, IMHO, would make for good multiplay.

1650 by Markus Eklund; basic, but fun.
1884 by Mattias Pitz; same as 1650.
Ancient Empires by Kull; Excellent scen, but don't know how balanced it is.
The Long 19th Century (anon author); A lot of cities, but fun.
The Modern Age by yours truly; Designed w/multiplay in mind.

Comments? Other opinions? Other scenarios for multiplay?

Henrik is offline Henrik
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Thumbs up  Old Post 16-03-2001 20:29 Visit Henrik's homepage!
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Snogs Old and New scenario, is also good for multiplay (altough still in playtest).

Also:
Would you like some coments on The Modern Age? You don't tell where to submit comments in your readme, and I have a few comments I would like to make (For example there are some inacuracies that could easily be corrected).
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited March 16, 2001).]

The Hogfather
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The long 19th century is good... too bad there are no engineers... hall i modify it so that there are?

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
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Those are all good picks, but the Kull one has a problem with multi-player because of the events file. I've still played it this way, but it not the same without events, and if events are used for only one empire, it is unbalaced for the others. How about one of the African colony ones? It might be fun M/P. Your modern age could work, or as I said in the other thread, the American Empire one.
Edit:Spelling
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[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited March 16, 2001).]

Exile is offline Exile
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  Old Post 17-03-2001 01:31
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Henrik; Yeah, I know that there are some stunning inaccuracies w/The Modern Age, but, like I said in the readme file--I wanted to make it fun and if it's necessary to sacrifice a little historical accuracy, so be it. The hopeless truth is; there just aren't enough civs. 7 civs is not enought to do it right. Given that I can't do it right, one must put the thing together with the idea that it should be a fun game to play. I think Chris agrees w/me on this one. Please feel free to email me, however, with any feedback you've got on the scenario. I am still thinking about making an updated version 2.0

Hogfather; I sure do like that Long 19th Century scenario. It strikes me that if we had human players in the French, British, Russian, Prussian, and Austrian civs, it would make for a great game. Leaving out the Turks and the neutrals wouldn't really be a problem.

Chris; Either Modern Age or American Empire would work for me. I didn't know about the problems w/Kull's scenarios. Any scens by others you can think of?

Salutations,
Exile

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"or a very good liar." --Stefu
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited March 16, 2001).]

The Hogfather
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Exile- Yes, France, Austria, Prussia, Russia and Britain is all we really need.

Jay Bee is offline Jay Bee
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  Old Post 17-03-2001 19:02 Visit Jay Bee's homepage!
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I am of those who generally dislike scens with plenty of cities. Why? I do not get the feeling that I 'earned' all of this. That was given to me with no effort on my part... I enjoy it better if I start with only a few cities and grow by myself.

Henrik is offline Henrik
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Post  Old Post 17-03-2001 19:32 Visit Henrik's homepage!
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When I start out whit to many cities I treat them carellesly (one exception was this game I played whit the Redfront Scenario, I was home and ill and learned all the citie names and what I wanted to do whit them, that game was really exhausting, but still wonderfully fun to play, sadly when i tried the same scenario again I couldn't get that feeling back).

Shaka Naldur is offline Shaka Naldur
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Post  Old Post 17-03-2001 20:26 Visit Shaka Naldur's homepage!
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Justinian can be a good scenario also (i don´t know why this scenario isn´t more famous, I think that I´ll make some propaganda about it)
Time of Thunder and 30 year war by Jesus Muñoz are also quite good

Exile is offline Exile
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  Old Post 17-03-2001 20:30
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Jaybee; Understood. But isn't that what historical monarchs in Europe during the period inherited? Did Louis XIV "earn" his cities in France? His bellicose behavior during his reign was renowned. Not having earned his resources didn't stop him from waging aggressive war on his nearest neighbors with all the strength of the French state. I would suggest that "earning" one's empire is a subjective feeling; no less valid, but clearly subjective.
Hogfather; It sounds like you and I enjoy the same kind of scenarios. Have you played the Long 19th Century often? I have, when time permits.

Henrik; I know the feeling of nostalgia for the intial play of a good scenario. Remind me sometime to tell you about my first experience with the Jules Verne scenario.

Shaka; I agree, JMF's scenarios are excellent.

Salutations,
Exile


[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited March 17, 2001).]

Jay Bee is offline Jay Bee
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  Old Post 17-03-2001 20:42 Visit Jay Bee's homepage!
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quote:

Originally posted by Exile on 03-17-2001 10:30 AM
I would suggest that "earning" one's empire is a subjective feeling; no less valid, but clearly subjective


Yes, you are absolutely correct. The point is, how many cities is too many cities? perhaps you'd like it with 30 (wild guess?). I would not go for more than 10. The only important thing is to have fun, I think

quote:

But isn't that what historical monarchs in Europe during the period inherited? Did Louis XIV "earn" his cities in France?


Well, I do not think you can compare one thing with another. Depending on how spread you put your cities and the size of the map, you could cover the whole teritory of France with 10 or 30 cities


Exile is offline Exile
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  Old Post 17-03-2001 20:49
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JayBee; your "wild guess" was right on the money. And of course you're absolutely correct in stating that the idea is to have fun. I have seen some players actually say that they like having their cities go into disorder so that they can quell the revolts! I like inheriting vast empires of many cities with tremendous problems that require ingenius use of the resources of the civ2 game to solve. Conquering enemies is fun too, but the quest to rationalize your own empire has its attraction.

What aspect of a scenario do you find most interesting/attractive?

Interrogation mode,
Exile

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"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

Masis is offline Masis
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May 1999
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Question  Old Post 17-03-2001 21:53
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[quote]Originally posted by Shaka Naldur on 03-17-2001 10:26 AM
Justinian can be a good scenario also (i don´t know why this scenario isn´t more famous, I think that I´ll make some propaganda about it)

Which Justinian scenario is this? Where can it be downloaded from.
There was a scenario I made actually about the age of Justinian though it has not been Generally Released to all Civ II sites.
I am currently re-working it in a major way but the one you talk of can not be the old version-can it?

To see the forthcoming reworked aspects of 'Justinian' E-mail me and the graphics will be sent, I appreciate your comments.

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MRP

The Hogfather
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Exile- I have played, but I am frustrated at the fact that you can never get engineers in the game.

Shaka Naldur is offline Shaka Naldur
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it´s Carl Fritz´s version
I don´t know where can be downloaded from though
In his webpage but I don´t know the url, sorry

awesome scenario anyway

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
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Question  Old Post 17-03-2001 23:54
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Just what is the 'Long 19th century' scenario? Where can I find it?

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Long 19th Century can be found in the Apolyton database.

Jay Bee is offline Jay Bee
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  Old Post 18-03-2001 00:37 Visit Jay Bee's homepage!
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quote:

Originally posted by Exile on 03-17-2001 10:49 AM
What aspect of a scenario do you find most interesting/attractive?



Don't laugh at me but what I really enjoy is to build magnificent cities (above 35 pop points). One of my beloved goals is to get the 5 most important cities of the world, and achieve this with the least possible wonders.

I am an extremely peaceful player, so I almost never go to war. But when the AI attcks it never takes me by surprise. What I do is to conquer the closest AI city to my empire and sign a peace treaty. There it comes the fun for me; gotta polish my new city as much as can and as soon as I can


PS. Link to Carl Firtz's site (Gothmog) is in the links section of my site. I agree with Shaka, Justinian is an excellent scenario. I like Gothmog's scenarios; they always have *something*

Masis is offline Masis
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  Old Post 18-03-2001 01:31
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Carl's Justinian scenario looks nice, I downloaded it.
Then I got a message saying that the Kushans were raiding the silk route-by the 5th century the Kushans were on the verge of political extinction so it is unlikely they would have the might to launch an attack of such a scale-a better tribe to have picked could be the Ephalites (White Huns).
For one of the Tribal towns of the Huns instead of using the anachronistic name of Scythians perhaps the name of Khazar or Ephalite could have been used instead.
Hispania looks a little too big, and the region of Normandy is missing from Gaul (France).
The capital of the Sassanid Persians was called Ctesiphon not Selucia.
Justinian did not exist during 410 AD a better name would be Arcadius.
The realm of the Goths needs to be re-alocated towards the region of Pannonia (Hungary) all the gothic regions in the Baltic were under Hun control at this time.
More variety could have been given to the individual characters of the Special Forces units to represent the Leaders such as Chosroes the Persian Shah.

Due to the time scale of the Scenario, a better name for the scenario could be Fall of the West or something similar to describe the situation.

Also the Dacian town needs to be renamed to something like Gepids or Bastarnae, the Dacians were no longer a political force at this time in history.
Eburaca needs to be renamed to Pons Aeli, York is not so far north, I know I live in England.

So, if these changes could be met, as well as a more appropriate Title to illustrate the situation of the period it will prove to be a superb scenario.

Exile is offline Exile
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  Old Post 18-03-2001 01:51
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JayBee; you're a perfectionist! I am so accustomed to seeing warlords and militarists in civ2; playing w/you in a game sounds like it would be a welcome change of pace.

Chris; the Long 19th century is a Napoleonic scenario of epic proportions, but it doesn't stop at 1815. It runs until 1920 and its tech modifier is 8-1; it takes forever to gain new techs. I usually play it set on prince, but a good multiplayer or pbem game set on king, emp, or deity would be a real treat. If you're really interested, email me and I'll tell you more about it. It's really an old scenario, I think, but huge.

Anybody else wanna state their preferences in scenarios and why?

Salutations,
Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
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I'll send you a message when I get off the boards, Exile.

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Shaka Naldur is offline Shaka Naldur
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Masis,
wow,
you would be an awesome playtester
where can I found your scenarios? I heard that you have a few

Henrik is offline Henrik
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hmmm... Masis would you be interested in playtesting a scenario taking place in europe and begining 1655?

Prometeus is offline Prometeus
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quote:

Originally posted by Masis on 03-17-2001 03:31 PM
...a better tribe to have picked could be the Ephtalites (White Huns).

For one of the Tribal towns of the Huns instead of using the anachronistic name of Scythians perhaps the name of Khazar or Ephalite could have been used instead.




1) True. Kushans were limited to several small Kashmir kingdoms in this era.

2) Naahhhh... much better Ogundurs, Utrigurs, Kutrigurs or Vhkundur Bulgars.


[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited March 18, 2001).]

Masis is offline Masis
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Well, all scenarios by me that are currently available-play by all means-but they are not the 'finished product' merely proto types to see what works and what doesn't.
Currently I am giving a lot of them graphic beutification, for example I found a nice Hill Fort city type, and it is going to be used in the new version of Age of Arthur.
Utiger, Kutigers, Bulgars etc, came later during the 6th century when the Hun Empire fragmented into the competing tribes of Atilla's numerous sons, besides those Ephalites need a base don't they?

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Masis is offline Masis
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Trivial I know-but the best name actually for the anachronistic 'Scythians' town in Carl's Justinian scenario should be Sabirian Huns.
Such things as I have mentioned are mere polishing offs for a good scenario, generally Carl's scenario is good.

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So??? Which scenario will we be doing then???

Henrik is offline Henrik
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I am interested, I like lots of cities if it is a long scenario, in a short scenario lots of cities are bad though.
I might not have made that clear earlier.
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited March 21, 2001).]

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
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I don't have a problem with long or short scenarios, Exile. I'm in on both the long and the short. Long 19th century is fine. In fact, I'll put a bid in now to be the Russians, or the British, and a thrid choice the Prussians. Set the start date.

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Henrik is offline Henrik
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Where can I get the scenario?

 
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