31-03-2000 04:24									#1
	The Pikeman's defense. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In some scenarios there are units which the cityadvisor states as: «+50% versus units with a movement factor of 2», but the Defense Minister states the same units as: «x2 vs. horse».

So, what if that unit, in this scenario a Pikeman, gets attacked by a unit with a movement factor of 3, for example a Mameluke which is a horse according to the graphics? How will it defend against it? With +50% vs. units with a movement factor of 2, or with x2 vs. horse?

Which brings us to the Bedouins unit, which have a movement rate of 3 and are camels according to the graphics. What about them, do they ignore the Pikeman's +50% vs. units with a movement factor of 2 as well as his x2 vs. horse?

Has anyone figured this out? Or do i have to run some tests myself?
I'd rather not actually... lazy...

By the way i'm playing the 'Holy Wars scenario by David Morovan' as the Fatimids if that makes any difference.

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	31-03-2000 04:31									#2
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AFAIK, the bonus applies to all units with a movement of two. There is no 'horse' flag for the game to latch on to, but most horse units have a move of two, so it's largely a matter of semantics.

	31-03-2000 16:33									#3
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but also elephant!

	31-03-2000 16:34									#4
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So there's no 'horse' flag. That takes care of the camel units.
But about the cavalry, let me clarify what i'm trying to say.
If the pikeman, with a 5* defense, gets attacked by a cavalry unit with a movement rate of 3, how will it defend itself?
With A) 7.5
«+50% versus units with a movement factor of 2» (or is it «of 2 or more?),
or with B) 10
«x2 vs. horse»
Obviously the 2.5 difference can make a big difference.
And another thing, in the same scenario there are also catapults with a movement rate of 2, does the pikeman bonus apply to these catapults as well?
Seriously, there has to be someone among you who already figured these things out


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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	31-03-2000 21:52									#5
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Since the attacker has a move of three, there is no bonus for the defender. The match must be exact.

	02-04-2000 05:25									#6
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Remember the thing about hit points and firepower as well (you'll find out about this if you try to make a scenario with anti-tank guns)

	02-04-2000 20:09									#7
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Through playtesting, I have found that the "x2 defense vs horse" is more accurately stated as:

+50% (rounded down) to defense vs units with a movement of exactly 2.

	02-04-2000 20:32									#8
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Yes Shamrock! That is exactly what i needed to know. Thank you very much indeed.

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	02-04-2000 23:53									#9
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AK,
The pikeman bonus does not work on any unit that does not have a movement factor of 2.
Just to make sure I tested.
I took a flat map with nothing but grass squares. lined up 30 non vet pikeman vs 30
non vet horseman(movement 2). Attack 2 vs. defense (2*2) 4. Pikeman won 29 out of 30.
Lined em up again. but this time i edited the horse unit so its movement factor was 3.
The pikeman now won only 14 times out of 30.
An almost 50 % ratio. What u would expect for a 2 defense vs a 2 attack on open terrain unfortified. This test was done on diety level MPG.

	04-04-2000 09:21									#10
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Thanks Neon Deon! It's great when people load up the game and take the time to prove/disprove the posted ideas! Keep up the good work!

	05-04-2000 15:13									#11
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Wait a second! Any unit with a movement of 2????

Neon Deon, I have a special request for you: please repeat that test, only this time have the Pikemen defend against Howitzers!

	06-04-2000 01:40									#12
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Howies????? oh ok but gee howies have 3 hit points and firepower of 2 thats gonna be a slaughter. Yep no chance. did 100 battles the
howies got barely a scratch.

[This message has been edited by Neon Deon (edited April 05, 2000).]

	06-04-2000 02:39									#13
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LOL. I was just imaging pikeman trying to defend against incoming shells with just their long pikes.

Good info here. It would be nice if there was a horseman flag. The current way works good in the normal game. But if you want a horse unit with a movement of 3 or more in a scenario, pike defense against them won't work.

	06-04-2000 05:24									#14
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Black,
Well that makes roads much more valuable. you could always keep em at 2 and raise road bonus to 4 or 5 per movement point.

	06-04-2000 08:04									#15
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Neon -

Heehee, thanks for preforming that lopsided test! I didn't stop to think that, when facing Howitzers, the Pikemen's defense is insignificant, even when doubled!

Like Black Bart I enjoyed picturing the scene of your test: a row of massive WWI-era howitzers, all lined up, cleated steel wheels hub-to-hub. The Pikemen, three miles distant, arrayed in densely packed square formations. The pikes are raised to fighting position. Then, from across the field ... "FIRE!"

---

Okay, here is a more serious question: a veteran player once advised me that the Pikeman's defensive bonus only applied to units that had a movement of two and a hitpoint of one! This, he said, meant that the bonus was not used against Cavalry and Dragoons. Is this what Seeker was referring to (above)? And then there is still OttoK's qeustion of Elephants (2 movement, 1 hitpoint).

This is actually relevant for me because I use an "early armor" unit to which give the Pikeman's bonus. Since this early armor appears with combustion, it is not unlikely that it will go up against dragoons or cavalry (just as happened historically).

Do you feel up to another round of testing?

Thanks again!!
- mindseye
[This message has been edited by mindseye (edited April 05, 2000).]

	06-04-2000 19:41									#16
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Thanks Neon for running the tests.
So, if i understand it correctly, the program makes no difference between cavalry, artillery or infantry. No matter who or what attacks a pikeman, as long as it has a movementrate of 2, the pikeman will have a bonus, right?
Does this also mean you can create units with a bonus vs. say... 3-move-units?

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	07-04-2000 09:28									#17
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A "horse" in civ2:

2 moves, 2 firepower, and 1 hitpoint. Anything else is not a 'horse'. Try making the tank attack strength 4 and testing it out. Give the piker the same hp and fp as the tank. The piker will still have defense 2 and so will lose every time.

This was discovered in world war scenarios when people tried to make anti tank guns, they don't get the times 2 bonus unless the "tank" had 2 fp and 1 hp.

	06-04-2000 23:01									#18
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Seeker, are you sure about "horse" units having 2 move, 1 hitpoint and 2 firepower? There are no standard CivII units that fall in this category. Perhaps you mean an attack strength of 2, not firepower.

I tested the Pikemen once last year and found out the same thing as mindseye. The bonus only works if the attacker has 1 hitpoint. Therefore Pikemen are of little value against Dragoons, Cavalry or Howitzers (especially Howizters!). Unfortunately, I never tested any other variables, like whether the Pikeman must also have 1 hp, or if fp matters at all.

	06-04-2000 23:52									#19
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I would like to propose an experiment: raise the pikemens'defense to six, and drop the howitzers' attack to nine; give them both four hp and four firepower. If the bonus works, the results should be around 50%

As a TOT player, I can tell you that there are tons of units in both the SF and Fantasy games that have this bonus, at stages in each game where a 'one hp' rule would render it useless...

	07-04-2000 10:03									#20
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Darn!
Well i have to test everything over again cuase its all skewed. But, this u can take to the bank. The pikeman bonus is not 2 times its 50% Ie: he is a three not a four when it comes to units that move 2.
The pikeman wins 50 % of the time vs chariot and only 20% vs elephant! I tested em each in 100 battles, Pike won 52 out of 100 against the chariot and won 20 out of 100 vs the elephant.

	07-04-2000 11:35									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Two Hit Points.

The pikeman defense does not work against units with more than one hp.
I Adjusted both the pikeman and the chariot to 2 hps. The pikeman won 2 out of 100 or 2%. Just to make sure I tested it with 3 hps each also. The pikeman won 0 out of 100.
I guess you could still make anti tank units.
just keep the hps at one and adjust the attack strengths more.
I am not sure about TOT tho have to get the program to test that one.
I also got an Email from the Pres. of the Pikemans union stating how he didnt apprecitate me using his members like they were a bunch of GM crash test dummies.

	07-04-2000 14:22									#22
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Would someone please clarify how Hit Points work?
I am playing a Samurai scenario with ninja units which (if I remember correctly) are 2 attack 0 defense and 8! HP - although they normally go quietly when attacked by any normal unit they have occasionally knocked a Samurai 3/2 unit down to a sliver of red, when the Samurai was the attacker.


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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	07-04-2000 16:23									#23
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SG1 - as I understand it, even a zero defense unit has a small chance of winning. An 8HP unit would have 80 (small) chances to win, so it could end up surviving. I've seen other people report losing to barb kings, who only have 1 HP.

	07-04-2000 19:15									#24
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Sorry. just checked rules, it's 1 hp and 1 fp (I think).

This means pikemen shouldn't get a bonus vs dragoons.

Attack: The chance to make a successfull attack on a unit, which inflicts damage to the opponents hp equal to the attackers fp, thus a warrior attacking a cannon needs to win the equivalent of two successful battles.

Somewhere in the manual I believe it says that 1 hp is actually 10 hp, or something like that. There are a few times when you need to know what these represent, for instance shore bombardment both attacker and defender are considered 1 hp, 1 fp.

	07-04-2000 19:39									#25
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...and thus the pikemen become even less useless to me. I didn't think that possible.

Sigh.

	07-04-2000 22:07									#26
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Wow! Again! This stuff is starting to sound like vodoo! Soooo, if MR. Pikeman has 2 hps and 2fps his D bonus works?? Oh boy this game is Vodoo! Now, all i need are some live chickens Here chicky, chicky chicky Okay Pablo line up the crash dummies.

	07-04-2000 23:23									#27
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Ooops, I might be wrong. Moscow was on a river, that contribute to the defense of the Vet Red Guards. However they are not fortified.

	07-04-2000 23:41									#28
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Xin,
I Think something might be off on your observation.
..........Pikeman on Steroids...............
VS
...........Chariots of Death................

Pikeman defending.

Both units at 7/5/2 hps 2 fp 2
7 attack vs. 5 defense.
Pikmen won 15 out of 100 battles (15%)

Repeated test with pikeman fortified.
7 attack vs. 7.5 defense if bonus doesnt work.

Pikemen won 59 out of 100 (59%)

Bonus only works on units with 1 hp.
Gotta go some guys with really long spikes are at the door.

	08-04-2000 02:57									#29
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Very interesting forum.

Keep up the good work…

	08-04-2000 06:15									#30
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This is my understanding of how this works:
Firepower applies only to offense, it is a measure of how much damage a successful battle round will cause to the loser.
Hitpoints apply only to defense, it(times 10) is a measure of how much damage a unit can take in a losing battle.
In a battle, the winner gets no damage, and the loser loses hit points equivalent to the winner's firepower. The odds of winning a battle round is determined by the ratio of the attacker's offense strength vs the defender's defense strength. You can tell how many hit points a victor has left by the color bar. green=67-100%, yellow=34-36%,red=less than 33%.
Any unit with a defense of 0(diplomat, barb king, cruise missle) must almost always lose. I have bested a barb king on a hill with a warrior in the red and 1/3 movement left. On one rare occasion, a barb leader on a mountain did win, so I suppose there may be some rounding in the calculations.