29-07-2001 11:19									#241
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I get it now. lol Maybe I should go sleep so I can think again.

	29-07-2001 14:08									#242
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JellyDonut,
I totally agree that it's a long shot - a very, very long shot - but it's still hard evidence of the possible presence of the Vikings, something which can't be ignored. It's the same deal as with the Confederates and quite frankly with most of the civs on that bottom list: evidence is so weak it's almost pathetic but if you want to be complete you have to mention it...



So far, based on our evidence, we know that (no changes):

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader (Abraham Lincoln; 100% confirmed), city names (capital), Unique Unit (F15) -> Light blue
2. GERMANS - Unique Unit (Panzer), city names (capital), multiple text references, video reference -> Dark blue
3. CHINESE - Leader (Mao Zedong; 100% confirmed), city names -> Light blue
4. ROMANS - Leader (C. Julius Ceasar), city name (capital), Unique Unit (Legion), video reference -> Red
5. FRENCH - Leader (Joan of Arc(?); 100% confirmed), city names (capital), dialogue window of the French (Unique Unit: Musketeer?) -> Pink
6. RUSSIANS - Unique Unit (MiG), city names -> Grey
7. ZULUS - Unique Unit (Impi), city names -> Yellow
8. ENGLISH - Leader (Elisabeth I; 100% confirmed), (Unique Unit: Man-at-Arms?)
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader (100% pharaoh, does anyone know who this is?), definite text reference, city names (capital) -> Yellow
10. INDIANS - Leader (Mahatma Ghandi; 100% confirmed)
11. JAPANESE (95%) - Leader (here - Hat and characters on collar are Japanese), possible Unique Unit (Samurai) (see 17)
12. IROQUOIS - Leader (Hiawatha; 100% confirmed), city names, text references, Unique Unit (75% Unique Unit - 25% Military Leader) -> Grey
13. GREEKS - Leader (Alexander the Great, city names (capital), possible Unique Unit (Hoplite), text reference, video reference -> Green


EVIDENCE ABOUT OTHER CIVS (which means they could be in or not):

14. PERSIANS - City names (capital) -> Brown?
15. BABYLONIANS - City name -> Red
16. AZTECS - City names -> Pink
17. MONGOLS (5%) - There's a small chance Firaxis made some mistakes with the Leader; if so, it is a Mongol rather than a Japanese Leader (see 11)


SUGGESTIONS BASED ON CLUES (weak clues but we report them):

18. SPANISH - City name: Salamanca, but it was once a Roman city and there's also an Iroquois city with that name.
19. VIKINGS (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?
20. ISRAELIS. Apolytoner Eli has pointed out that according to a israeli site, Israel is in.
21. CANADIANS. City name (Montreal). The city name is NOT on the map, but on a civ 3 window.
22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Many other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American, among other reasons because (as joseph1944 pointed out) he served for the American Army before joinging the Confederates.
23. PHOENICIANS. Based on a single text reference in a preview.


--------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is categorized as such:

Leader= We have a picture of the leader of the corresponting civ.
Unique Unit= We know that the particular unique unit belongs to the corresponding civ
Text reference= The civ has been mentioned by Firaxis in their web site or in interviews by their CEO
Video reference= The civ was seen in Firaxis demo movie from E3.
City names= The names of cities that clearly belong to the corresponding civ are included in scrrenshots of the game
All other clues= All other clues are reported next to the civ name.
-> Color= Indicates in which color(s) the civ has been seen in in-game screenshots.

-------------------------CIV FACTS-----------------------

+ Firaxis said they made NO official announcement regarding the number of civs that may or may not be included in the game.
+ In a Gamespot article its says that civs will be 16.
+ An israeli site says that civs will be 16
+ In an IGN preview it says that there will be 16 civs.
+ By now, many other sources have also claimed that the total number of civs in Civ3 will be 16.

--------------------------POINTERS-------------------------

* The city names in the screenshots can be from an extra city names list or could have been arbitrarily written be members of Firaxis. So city names in screenshots doesn't guarantee that a civ will be in. Examples: Kerplakistan and Huntsville, possibly others.
* Another problem could be scenarios. Though city names alone are not enough evidence to include a civ on the 100% certain list and scenario-specific graphics are not likely to be made public until the game is in late beta (if they even exist at all), it's quite possible that some of the evidence we used in this list is based on scenario specific information and not be valid for the regular game.

Edit: typos

	29-07-2001 15:16									#243
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Locutus,
You maybe should add a pointer about that more then one civ has the same color in the CIV FACTS section.

	30-07-2001 01:27									#244
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Surely the average Apolytoner can count to two? But I'll see if I can add some kind of comment on this next time...

	30-07-2001 19:42									#245
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quote: Apolyton: Will there be 7 civs in a game like civ2 and smac or more? We have heard almost any possible choice on this Jeff Morris: Supported, there will be 7 civilizations in a game, 8 including the player. The editor allows you to adjust this, though many screens are setup only for this 8 civ limit. (sidenote: when asked what the limit of the editor will be, Jeff responded that the tools are still in development and that the current limit is 16)

I wouldn't gloat that I said 8 civs per game before this interview

Anyway, now that we know this information, it seems logical that there will be 16 colors in the game. If there are 8 civs per regular game, it would explain why each civ is tied to a color and that two civs share the same color. However the answer is a little ambiguous as he says the editor will allow you to adjust the number. We do not know if that number is per regular game or just for scenarios/mods. Anyway, if scenarios can be made with 16 civs then a big to Firaxis. No more clumping the neutral/third world countries into one civ in my scenarios!

By the way, I think maybe Japan is purple because the samurai unit's clothing looks purple and there are other purple-colored units on that screenshot. However I'm not sure about this as that one screenshot is the only evidence.

Edit: grammar

	31-07-2001 00:01									#246
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Now we know a lot more about the Civs included, and you have a lot to update the CIV FACTS with

8 civs in a game, without modification and 16 with modification. That gives us 8 colors, and groups of two.

	31-07-2001 00:06									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos That gives us 8 colors, and groups of two.

We don't know this. It seems to me that if 16 civs is possible, there must be 16 colors.

	31-07-2001 00:50									#248
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JellyDonut, I think that purple on the Japanese is a little too difficult to clearly recognize. I deliberately only looked at city names and borders as they leave much less room for speculation and debate. (Also, from my CtP experiences I can tell you that for a decent Modern World scenario on a big map you need about 33-35 civs, so 16 still limits you a lot, though it's a lot better than 7 of course).

I couldn't agree more, Gramphos. 16 civs are possible, yet not supported, so Firaxis doesn't have to add 16 colors (though it would be useful). All previous screenshots show only 8 colors, with 2 civs assigned to every color. Even if there are 16 colors, these extra colors will probably only be used in games with 8+ civs (or else we would have seen them) and I can't imagine any of the games from those screenshots have that many civs (why release screenshots of unofficial stuff?). Unless evidence that contradicts it comes up, I think we can safely assume Gramphos's statements to be accurate.

My suggestion for the new Civ Facts section:

+ Firaxis officially stated that the number of civs that is playable per game will officially be 8. However, it will be possible to increase this number to 16 through the editing tools. Firaxis made no official statement on the total number of civs that will be included in the game but this aforementioned statement and the fact that all previews agree on this issue make it very likely that this number will be 16.
+ Based on this info and all available screenshots it can be concluded that the Civs are very likely to be tied to color. There appear to be 8 colors in the game, with 2 civs tied to each color. Note that none of this is official though.

	31-07-2001 19:42									#249
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Sabre2th,
As we have seen same color for groups of two civs in the shots is it most likely that they have a base set of 8 colors, that are the one they think are best. Anyway, they might have defined 16 colors just in case someone will modify the number of civs. Still we will only be able to find out 8 of them.

Locutus,
I think your new Civ Facts section says it all

Edit: Spelling

Last edited by Gramphos on 31-07-2001 at 22:52

	31-07-2001 19:46									#250
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It's also possible, Gramphos, that colors are randomly chosen

As we know, many people had complained about the limitations of preset colors. I think it's quite possible Firaxis fixed it.

Last edited by Sabre2th on 31-07-2001 at 20:00

	31-07-2001 19:51									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th It's also possible, Gramphos, that colors are randomly chosen

Not from what we have seen yet, but things may change, and that might be an option for the editors to set.

Personally I would like a color system as the one in CivNet, where human(s) choose a color and AIs are randomly assigned colors from the remaining.

Edit: Spelling

	31-07-2001 20:07									#252
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What is your rock solid, undeniable proof? Is there a shot that I missed?

	31-07-2001 21:28									#253
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There is no such thing as rock solid proof on this particular issue, Sabre2th, but the combination of all screenshots makes it unlikely. The Greek are always green, the Germans always dark blue and even in the latest screenshots the Americans and Chinese are light blue. These (and many other) things combined make it very likely, though not absolutely certain, that civs are tied to color rather than random. As I said, "unless evidence that contradicts it comes up, I think we can safely assume Gramphos's statements to be accurate."

	31-07-2001 21:50									#254
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Maybe I'm stupid or ignorant (or both), but most of those shots seem to have come from the same games. I would guess that they are (for the most part) from 2-3 games that best demonstrated what they wanted to show us. (or not show us)

	31-07-2001 23:05									#255
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Sabre2th,
you may be right, but then the game has changed a lot form each time the screens are released. And if you compare the minimaps, you can see that there are many different games, but it might just be different parts of the world.
And the fact that all screens we've seen are using the same color setup speaks for itself. Anyway, there is a possibility that the colors are randomized, but why don't they show that.

I'm just being realistic when saying that, most likely, the colors will be fixed.

	31-07-2001 23:22									#256
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Sabre2th,
I counted 4 different games from the latest series of screenshots from PC Zone alone (the radar maps and positions of cities in relation to each other give a good impression of which shots are from the same game). All older screenshots total at the very least another 4.

Gramphos,
Actually, I find it not very likely that the colors will still get fixed if they aren't already (which we do not know: we haven't seen 8+ civs in action yet, to our knowledge): only 8 colors are needed (16 isn't officially supported) and the game could hit beta any moment now, after which Firaxis will just be fixing bugs, playbalancing and taking care of other minor details. Yes, colors could be one of these things, but why bother if it's not supposed supported anyway and you want to ship before Christmas?



So far, based on our evidence, we know that:

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader (Abraham Lincoln; 100% confirmed), city names (capital), Unique Unit (F15) -> Light blue
2. GERMANS - Unique Unit (Panzer), city names (capital), multiple text references, video reference -> Dark blue
3. CHINESE - Leader (Mao Zedong; 100% confirmed), city names -> Light blue
4. ROMANS - Leader (C. Julius Ceasar), city name (capital), Unique Unit (Legion), video reference -> Red
5. FRENCH - Leader (Joan of Arc(?); 100% confirmed), city names (capital), dialogue window of the French (Unique Unit: Musketeer?) -> Pink
6. RUSSIANS - Unique Unit (MiG), city names -> Grey
7. ZULUS - Unique Unit (Impi), city names -> Yellow
8. ENGLISH - Leader (Elisabeth I; 100% confirmed), (Unique Unit: Man-at-Arms?)
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader (100% pharaoh, does anyone know who this is?), definite text reference, city names (capital) -> Yellow
10. INDIANS - Leader (Mahatma Ghandi; 100% confirmed)
11. JAPANESE (95%) - Leader (here - Hat and characters on collar are Japanese), possible Unique Unit (Samurai) (see 17)
12. IROQUOIS - Leader (Hiawatha; 100% confirmed), city names, text references, Unique Unit (75% Unique Unit - 25% Military Leader) -> Grey
13. GREEKS - Leader (Alexander the Great, city names (capital), possible Unique Unit (Hoplite), text reference, video reference -> Green


EVIDENCE ABOUT OTHER CIVS (which means they could be in or not):

14. PERSIANS - City names (capital) -> Brown?
15. BABYLONIANS - City name -> Red
16. AZTECS - City names -> Pink
17. MONGOLS (5%) - There's a small chance Firaxis made some mistakes with the Leader; if so, it is a Mongol rather than a Japanese Leader (see 11)


SUGGESTIONS BASED ON CLUES (weak clues but we report them):

18. SPANISH - City name: Salamanca, but it was once a Roman city and there's also an Iroquois city with that name.
19. VIKINGS (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?
20. ISRAELIS. Apolytoner Eli has pointed out that according to a israeli site, Israel is in.
21. CANADIANS. City name (Montreal). The city name is NOT on the map, but on a civ 3 window.
22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Many other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American, among other reasons because (as joseph1944 pointed out) he served for the American Army before joinging the Confederates.
23. PHOENICIANS. Based on a single text reference in a preview.


----------------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is categorized as such:

Leader= We have a picture of the leader of the corresponting civ.
Unique Unit= We know that the particular unique unit belongs to the corresponding civ
Text reference= The civ has been mentioned by Firaxis in their web site or in interviews by their CEO
Video reference= The civ was seen in Firaxis demo movie from E3.
City names= The names of cities that clearly belong to the corresponding civ are included in scrrenshots of the game
All other clues= All other clues are reported next to the civ name.
-> Color= Indicates in which color(s) the civ has been seen in in-game screenshots.

-------------------------FACTS & POINTERS-----------------------

* Firaxis officially stated that the number of civs that is playable per game will officially be 8. However, it will be possible to increase this number to 16 through the editing tools. Firaxis made no official statement on the total number of civs that will be included in the game but this aforementioned statement and the fact that all previews agree on this issue make it very likely that this number will be 16.
* Based on this info and all available screenshots it can be concluded that the Civs are very likely to be tied to color. There appear to be 8 colors in the game, with 2 civs tied to each color. Note that none of this is official.
* The city names in the screenshots can be from an extra city names list or could have been arbitrarily written be members of Firaxis. So city names in screenshots don't guarantee that a civ will be in. Examples: Kerplakistan and Huntsville, possibly others.
* Another problem could be scenarios. Though city names alone are not enough evidence to include a civ on the 100% certain list and scenario-specific graphics are not likely to be made public until the game is in late beta (if they even exist at all), it's quite possible that some of the evidence we used in this list is based on scenario specific information and not be valid for the regular game.

Last edited by Locutus on 31-07-2001 at 23:30

	31-07-2001 23:34									#257
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Locutus,
I never said that I thought that the colors would change. I just said that it is possible. What I think is that the colors are final.

	01-08-2001 00:44									#258
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Sorry, the fact that 'fixed' can have two different meanings in this context ('repaired' and 'unchangable') confused me

	01-08-2001 18:55									#259
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16 is a good number because 30-something civs would be very confusing for the player (whoops, I shouldnt have attacked. Luxemburg is a slightly lighter blue.) A good WW2 scenario on a world map would need 13-14 civs at most.

	01-08-2001 20:12									#260
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Actually, 30+ civs is quite possible color-wise, the CtP series proved this. Of course, the standard color pattern Activision provided didn't work very well (after civ 16 all civs had a slightly different shade of green), but after some modding one could easily have 32 distinctly different colors. Sure, there were two or three different versions of every 'primary' color (blue, red, green, brown, gray, etc) but they were still different enough to be easily kept apart.

	02-08-2001 01:10									#261
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I have never played CTP, but I imagine it must have been confusing trying to remember who is at war with whom and with whom you have peace treaties or are allied, etc. and with improved diplomacy like military alliances, trade embargoes, free passage treaties, you'd have to get out paper and a pencil to keep track of it all if there were that many civs.

	02-08-2001 02:10									#262
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Ain't that what diplomacy screens/advisors are for? In CtP2 you only have to press F7 and you'll get a full overview of your diplomatic status with known civs (until the modern age you usually don't even know all of them). Also, some civs are larger and more important than others and some civs always die early on, so you only bother to remember the status of your most important opponents, as far as they are still alive.

	02-08-2001 23:29									#263
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But Morris said they couldn't get in more then 8 civs into the advisor screens without messing them up...

How could CtP have that?
And keep in mind that the Resolution of Civ3 will be 1024x768 while answering to this. They must have a lot of info/civ if they can't get in more then 8 in one screen.
Wait, I just realized that they probably not show the own civ, that would move the number down to 7

	03-08-2001 02:29									#264
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Hmm, the word 'screen' must be confusing for non-CtP players. In CtP the words 'screen' and 'window' are often messed up. The screen I'm talking about requires a scrollbar to review *all* civs. I think about 5 civs can be shown at the same time, though some simple UI modifications can probably increase this to roughly 15 (I didn't bother to max this out as I don't often play with 10+ civs). Some scrolling never hurt anyone though but even if it did, a slightly different setup from the CtP2 one should make displaying 30 odd civs simultaneously on 1024x768 possible as well.

	03-08-2001 17:55									#265
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THE JAPANESE?? I'll be damned!!!

I always thought (that means idea not based on concrete evidence) that it was Ghengkis and the Mongols!!

Oh well, I'm as happy as Locutus this dillema is coming near a closure

BTW, there seems to be a vacuum of new info by Firaxis as to what relates to our list. Guess there are up to their heads working on the game. Good

	03-08-2001 18:01									#266
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I'd like more info and more scrolling, rather than less info and less scrolling.

	03-08-2001 22:58									#267
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The June 2001 pcgamer preview includes the picture of a female leader (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3imag...3_pcgamer01.jpg). Looks pretty much like Catherine the Great for me. So she would be the Russian leader.

	04-08-2001 02:41									#268
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Or it could be Maria Theresa of the Germans...

	04-08-2001 02:43									#269
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By the way, out Japanese Shogun buddy is almost certainly Tokugawa Ieyasu. The Egyptian Pharaoh- if it's a woman (I can't tell by looking) would be Cleopatra or Hatshepsut.

And someone mentioned Julius Caesar. has anyone seen his pic? Where? Or was it just Alexander?

	04-08-2001 03:08									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus BTW, Joseph, I guess this is off-topic but I don't know where else to post it. You mentioned a couple of times in this thread that 'no one really knows how long the Polynesians have been on the Pacific Islands'. I did some research on Polynesia (unrelated to this thread) and discovered that this is in fact incorrect, it is very well known: they started inhabiting the Pacific from 1500 BC onwards (from Asia) and had all islands colonized by 1000 AD. Two good sources are http://www.pbs.org/wayfinders/polynesian2.html and http://www.iaora.com/NatHist/Polynesian_history.htm.

Thank you. I was watching the History Channel one day and they were talking about the Polynesian, but jump around the dates. That is why I did not have a date.