06-06-2000 19:53									#1
	World Conquered - 750bc - No Cities Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi,

I conquered the world by 750bc without building a single city. Version 2.4.2, Random Map, 7 civs, Raging Hordes, No restarting civs. Diety level.

I was playing around with this last night, and it really wasn't very hard. I came close a few times only to have one AI civ on an island, or running out of units. I expect this record (if it is a record) to stand for no longer than a week.

I didn't keep a log, but I periodically saved the game in about 5-turn increments. If you would like, you can get them from the following URL:
http://www.angelfire.com/ut/chuck0lynn/750bc.zip

Again, it wasn't too hard. Especially with all the plains on this particular map. It would have been faster if I would have gotten some horsemen/chariots from the early huts rather than archers.

Take care.

	06-06-2000 20:05									#2
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wow, I don't know what is left to see in civilization2, maybe reaching alpha centauri in BC??
but I think that that it is impossible

felicidades

	06-06-2000 20:26									#3
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I don't know, Shaka. This might be something.

Last week, I played with one city on an ultra-small (32x32) map.

I conquered every civ but one (similar to what was done here), and left one AI civ alive (fortifying the rest of my NON units on hill-tops 3-squares away from his city). As a result, he never asked me to leave, but he couldn't get out of the "perimeter" until about 1850ad.

Then I built every wonder in my only city and launched a space-ship from it. It arrived really late (2019ad), because it took awhile to build all the wonders with only one city.

That was a lot harder than this was.

	07-06-2000 09:39									#4
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You're right Shaka, getting to AC in BC is not possible. The game won't let you build spaceship parts before 1 AD.

Not that I ever came close to that on deity.

	07-06-2000 09:58									#5
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Nice one Vik!

I often wondered if it was possible to conquer with no cities - now I know.

Do you remember how many units you received from huts?

-----------
SG (2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited June 06, 2000).]

	06-06-2000 22:24									#6
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wow, all the wonders with just one city!!!!!!!!!!!
and I still can't win in an OCC game.
with the conquest with no cities, what was your purpose not to conquer any city?? just destroying them??? becuase if you just conquered them I think that you could do it even faster that you did.
the good part is that you don't have any cities so from the huts you are just going to get units, or I'm wrong???

	06-06-2000 22:30									#7
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Damn good,

Vik, I've had a few OCC games where I wandered about looking for ideal city sites while my barbarian hut tippers demanded tribute of any AI they encountered. I remember being sorely tempted to let loose a blood bath, but my devotion to OCC was too much back then. Maybe we should call your successful strategy Vik's Barbarian Method.

Later

	06-06-2000 22:37									#8
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sg(2),

It not only is possible, I felt it was rather easy. Like I said, I've been trying this for a little while, and generally you can tell after about a half-hour or so whether or not you will have a chance at success.

You have to have some luck with the shape of the world, and you have to have luck with the huts. I think I tagged just about every hut on the map, and since I had no cities, I got no barbarians.

Overall, I got 9 archers, 1 legion, 2 chariots, and 1 horseman. Of these, I lost an archer and a chariot. I really could have benefited from fast units.

I also got various amounts of gold and technologies from the huts -- I don't know how many I tipped, though.

I got slowed down as I was making a bee-line to the last Spanish city. Some barbarians landed between me and the city and I couldn't get re-inforcements there right away. I probably could have destroyed the city sooner, but all I had there was a legion and an archer unit. The city was size-3, so I wanted to get one or two more units up there.

I could have destroyed the last German city about 7 turns sooner, but it was mostly a size-2 undefended for those 7 turns. Everytime it built a unit, it attacked the very same turn it was completed, so I waited until I killed off the 2nd to the last civ (the Spanish) before I turned on Liepzig (the last civ).

I was able to keep peace even while fortifying units outside the AI cities. They would "DEMAND" that I move the troops away from their city. I would choose the option to "move offending units to nearest city," but since I had no city, the units stayed put. Same thing happens if you break an alliance without establishing a city.

	06-06-2000 22:37									#9
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Oh, I think both very early conquests and AC in early AD are very possible. All it takes is the right condition: all 7 civs starting on a small resource-rich landmass where all can be discovered within a few turns, and if not completely conquered, just keep one small one contained and then build up your cities to achieve maximum arrows and caravan productions. There are 100 turns (on the high levels) to 1 AD, so I'm not sure what is the most number of advances that can be researched in that time, given the best possible scenario. Perhaps playing at a lower level with more turns to 1 AD would allow you to discover Space Flight by 1 AD.

	06-06-2000 22:49									#10
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Shaka,

My aim was to destroy the cities, not take them over. In all but two cases this was a moot point. Most times, I faced either a size-1 or a size-2 city with one defender. Of course one or two successful attacks will destoy it totally.

And a couple of archers are very effective against a fortified warrior.

For one city, I waited a turn for the size-2 city to build a defender before I destroyed it. For the city of Liepzig, I had to wait several turns.

Aurelius,

Welcome back. Long time, no post? I don't have a problem with killing a city or a civ during OCC -- especially when they are sitting near a sweet 4-special spot with many river squares near-by. I just destroy the city without taking it over. One time, I allied with the AI who's capital I destroyed a couple of turns later.

	07-06-2000 00:33									#11
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Steve, it is certainly possible to get space flight before 1 AD on lower levels. I once played a game just for fun on chieftain and got space flight around 1000 BC (I think, it's some time ago so I don't remember the exact date).

	07-06-2000 01:52									#12
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Yeah, and I bet those warriors and phalanxes hanging around the mud huts were were shocked to see a spaceship flying over their heads.

	07-06-2000 08:27									#13
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My earliest on Chief is only 1700 or so(for spaceships), you simply can't research that fast. My high score is about 600%.
[This message has been edited by MasterBob (edited June 06, 2000).]

	07-06-2000 16:44									#14
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Masterbob,

Discovering Space Flight on the Chief level at around 1000bc seems incredible.

But don't doubt Paul.

Both Paul, Tom DeMille, and myself have reached Alpha Centauri in the middle 1500s. In this game, we all discovered Space Flight in 1100ad.

This was on Diety, 7 civs, Raging Hordes, with a "Large" map. We each played with one and only one city.

This was during the OCC Fortnight Competition #9. Details are at: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/H...html?date=06:44

	07-06-2000 17:59									#15
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Actually, space flight in 1000 BC on chieftain is not that incredible. On lower levels there are more turns in the game and 1000 BC on chieftain is turn 150. On deity turn 150 is 1000 AD which is not that much earlier than the discovery of space flight in the fastest OCC games. With the faster research on lower levels you should probably be able to get space flight well before 1000 BC. The only problem would be that the AI will be slower so you won't be able to trade as much with them as you would on deity.

	07-06-2000 22:12									#16
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Paul,

I just confirmed it for myself, playing on Chieftan.

I played with only one city, and got Space Flight in about 940bc. Probably could have gotten it sooner, but I wasn't managing the trade as sharply as usual.

Plus, I hadn't even built Darwin's voyage, yet.

You're right. Space Flight by 1000bc on Chieftan is not all that incredible. It just seems that way when I've played Diety for so long.
[This message has been edited by vik (edited June 07, 2000).]

	07-06-2000 23:17									#17
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WHat is left to do in civilization?
I'm going to try that of spaceship on 1000BC, is that on a occ game?

	07-06-2000 23:26									#18
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Yes, in deity 1000 BC is only 60 turns so you would never get space flight at such an early date and if you forget that the turn increments are smaller on chieftain such accomplishments would easily seem impossible when in fact they are not extra-ordinary compared to deity games.

	07-06-2000 23:43									#19
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shaka,

We're talking about the discovery of the "Space Flight" technology by 1000bc, not building a spaceship by then.

As Paul already pointed out, the game will not let you build Space Ship parts until 1ad, even if you have built the Apollo Program before then.

When I was trying to get Space Flight, I used one city. It's pretty easy to do on Chieftan if you follow these steps:

1.) Found your city close to river squares and near 3 or 4 trade specials.

2.) Immediately begin work on the colossus (or build some warriors if you don't have Bronze Working, yet).

3.) After Bronze Working, research towards Monarchy and establish that as soon as possible.

4.) After Monarchy, go for writing, currency, and trade

5.) After Colossus is built, build a library, marketplace, and temple

6.) Research towards Republic and/or Construction

7.) Build 3 caravans and deliver them. If you don't have a useful building to build, build caravans

8.) Build Colosseum and Aqueduct; once Republic is established, bump luxuries up to attain a size-12 city through WLTCD. Set your sights on Astonomy (pun intended).

9.) Build enough caravans (6) to rush-build Copernicus while start researching towards sanitation.

10.) Get Medicine after this and build up 6 more caravans for Shakespeare's. After Shake's is built, bring population up to size-21 through WLTCD; you can sell of the temple/colosseum. You've probably traded for seafaring by now so you can build a harbor if necessary.

11.) Go for Democracy, University, and Theory of Gravity technologies while building caravans, university, bank, and stock exchange as necessary.

12.) Get your city up to max size after democracy while building Newton's college and/or caravans.

13.) Research towards refrigeration and explosives. Build 2 engineers to modify terrain as desired, after which you use WLTPD to achieve your max city size. Build a supermarket.

14.) Research straight towards Automobile, possibly building Darwin's voyage with extra caravans along the way. Build Superhighways.

15.) Research towards computers. If your engineers are finished with the terrain, consider building a factory/power plant. If you can't grow your city any more, be sure to sell off the un-needed aqueduct and sewer system. Build Offshore platform if applicable, and a research lab as soon as possible.

16.) Research towards Space Flight, saving the Flight, Radio, Advanced Flight, and Rocketry as your last four techs.

17.) Throughout the ages, make sure you give techs to the AI. That decreases the time it will take you to discover something new. Also, avoid getting techs from the AI before you need them. This also decreases the time it takes. For example, there is a good chance an AI will have discovered "Fuedalism" while your working on "Refrigeration." Since you don't need Fuedalism as a pre-req for anything except for (I think) Computers -- you certainly don't need it for refrigeration -- avoid picking this tech up if possible until after you discover Automobile.

18.) If I left something out, or got it in the wrong order, refer to Paul's OCC strategy guide (the URL is in his profile) for a more thorough walk-through.
[This message has been edited by vik (edited June 07, 2000).]

	07-06-2000 23:52									#20
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I got space flight around 1000A.D once on Warlord, thats my best. I never tried OCC, its just not fun to me.

	08-06-2000 00:09									#21
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vik - a minor quibble with point (17). As I heard it, the research penalty for getting "too far ahead" of the AIs only applies at Deity level. I would think there's no point in giving techs away to the AIs at Chieftan. I'd expect them to be of little use in helping out with techs, and having extra techs would only handicap them further.

	08-06-2000 00:32									#22
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DaveV,

I can't get technical with you, or site a reference. All I have to go on is my experience when I tried it this morning.

At one point, I was researching Computers before the AI guys were discovering Polytheism/Trade/etc.

I gave them every technology I had (except for Combustion - a Flight pre-reque). Before I gave them all this technology, discoveries were coming every 3 turns at 70% science rate.

After I gave the 5 remaining civs nearly all of my technology, I was getting new discoveries every turn at 70% science.

Based on this one data point, I made a conclusion. It just seemed to work that way.

	08-06-2000 00:55									#23
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vik - good enough for me! I'll always take the voice of experience over something somebody might have read in a book somewhere. I stand corrected.

	08-06-2000 03:05									#24
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Vik,

Your 18-point progression is a welcome complement to Paul's summary. For someone like me on the steep OCC learning curve (trying to glean the actual application of principles from the logs of past comparison games) this helps.

	08-06-2000 18:40									#25
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tonic,

Thanks. Believe me, I did not intend to list 18 separate points, only 5 or 6 originally, but I just kept typing and typing.

I'm glad you appreciate it, and I am considering elaborating even further on it -- kind of, if I may be so bold -- an addendum to Paul's guide. Paul is a really good player, but I, and others, consider me to be a very good writer. Don't get on me for typos and misspellings for my posts here, because I don't spend much time editing.

But when I complete the speech my installation commander will be giving in two weeks (2-star Army General I'm writing for), I guarantee that will be error-free.

	08-06-2000 19:22									#26
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Yes, you may be so bold.

I have to admit that although I consider myself a good player, at least in OCC, I am not a very good writer. So if someone who is not only a good player but also a good writer were to write an addendum to my guide that would be a good idea.

	09-06-2000 15:59									#27
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Interesting that this addendum idea arose. I've only recently tried OCC. I downloaded Paul's excellent guideline and work from that. However I found myself searching through it repeatedly during game play. I thought it would be useful to have a concise summary to follow, just to save the time of re-reading. So I wrote one.

It's similar to Vik's 18-point list, but with more formatting. I made a series of tables with "Improvements" and "Research goals", chronologically arranged. And I included periodic key instructions.

I was thinking about posting it, or asking Paul if he wanted to put it on his site. However with Vik's recent offer, perhaps I should send it to him as a starting point for an OCC summary guide.

Vik, Paul -- would either of you like to see it or improve on it? It's in Word 2000 format, but I could save it in an older version.

(Edited to correct typos.)
[This message has been edited by Campo (edited June 09, 2000).]

	09-06-2000 16:26									#28
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Campo, I would like to see that. Please send it to paulvdb@home.nl . I have Word 97.

	09-06-2000 18:40									#29
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Okay, it's on the way. I'm sure it could be improved. The research goals are missing some items and there may be more city improvements. The chronological sequences could probably be improved too.

I debated having three big tables: one for research goals, one for improvements, and one for wonders. However I decided that it would be better to coordinate them -- matching the techs with the corresponding improvements and wonders. There's probably a better way to present it, but I think it's a decent starting point.

	09-06-2000 18:59									#30
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Well, it looks good so far although as you said there is some room for improvement. I'll play around with it during the weekend. Would it be ok with you if I put a changed version of this on my OCC site?