28-06-2001 03:42									#1
	Closing Overly Exploited Features and Loopholes Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

One of the reasons many veterans of Civ2 find the game unchallenging is that they have found and overly exploited many features and loopholes. These features and loopholes are exploited to a degree that can never be matched by the AI. For the game to be fun and challenging, all of these loopholes must be closed forever. This is a short list but hopefully makes the point clear. (I also realize that some of these features are not going to be in Civ3 so this is mostly to make the case more convincing.)

1. We Love the King Days - This makes for explosive population growths which are unbalancing and unrealistic and is clearly overly exploited. WLTKD should be banned completely!

2. Hanging Bombers prevent land attacks - Human players use it all the time but I have never seen the AI use it. It is stupid anyway but if the AI can't use it and the HP over exploits this features, perhaps it should be banned!

3. Infinite Movement RRs - self-explantory

4. Certain Wonders - There are certain wonders which are simply too powerful and something needs to be done about them. Michaelangelo's Chapel and JS Bach's come to mind to Civ2. If you have both, then you can move to Democracy very early in the game in outpace the computers in science easily (This would not be a problem however if the computer practiced "balance of power", see separate thread for details).

5. ZOC Avoidance using Diplomats/Spies - This should be changed so that ZOC is still enforced for military units to prevent you from moving military units into an area where ZOC would prevent you from occupying that tile if your spy was not there.

6. Rush buying - Needs to be tweaked as humans can exploit it in ways the AI cannot.

All right, that's it for now.

The point is that any feature or loophole should be examined to see whether the AI and HP can both exploit it equally. If the HP can but the AI cannot, then that feature should be tweaked or eliminated! What is the point to add features/loopholes that only make the HP beat the game more easily but which the AI simply does not use???

One of the things that I hope they really, really do well in playtesting is not only in hunting for bugs but also for the playtesters to hunt for loopholes that can be overly exploited so that all these loopholes can be closed!

	28-06-2001 03:50									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

meeting you point by point.

1. i agree, in a republic / democracy you could make a size 3 city an 8 within 5 turns
   
2. the AI uses hanging bombers, infact they dont have to refuel
   
3. i agree about infinate RR. especially with "sparatic ai movement"
   
4. maybe the two combined are a bit much, but how easy is it to get both? (i really don't focus on that area of the tech trree early on)
   
5. i agree, ZOC should not allow a legion to move onto a diplomat/caravan if enemy/peace unit is touching.
   
6. the AI is given fawking improvements. leave rush buying alone. add a "partial payment" like in AC. need queue.
   

	28-06-2001 03:52									#3
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Humans are smart.

Therefore they exploit, unless you patch it forever.

quote: 3. Infinite Movement RRs - self-explantory

IT NOT A EXPLOIT

The rest is balance and Ai problems.

	28-06-2001 04:04									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'd be happier if you were supplying viable alternatives for the ones that clearly need them, like a reason for having high happiness that is not so abusive, a different aircraft movement system or wonders that are worth the immense cost but can't "break" the game.

	28-06-2001 04:09									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MORON Humans are smart. Therefore they exploit, unless you patch it forever.

I realize that it is impossible to close each and every loophole but some "features" simply beg to be overly exploited. Many of these loopholes could and should have been easily detected and caught during playtesting and some are so obvious since the very nature of the feature just begs you to over exploit it. The best example is the "We love the King Day" feature.

If the loophole is really obscure or if the loophole is clearly such that it is blantant cheating, then I don't mind as much since I don't enjoy cheating and many other players have found loopholes but realized it is cheating and so refrained from exploiting them.

But if it is a feature, then this becomes a more serious problem as it was actually intended to work this way only that the AIs do not make use of it so the HP has a tremendous advantage.

Therefore, close all features and obvious loopholes that can only help the HP but can only hurt the AI as the AI cannot take advantage of it.

	28-06-2001 04:33									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Did anyone ever notice the cheat in Civ2 where if you built an airbase on a hill, mined or not, you still got the full benefit of farmland on that square? Also in Civ you could click a settler on and off a particular terrain improvement task and you could get it to complete it the same turn! Little loopholes like this need to be tightened up!

	28-06-2001 11:16									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

3. I support infinite RR movement. You just need some way to stop a human from using a computer player's RR to attack. A really simple rule is you can't move at infinity unless you own all the hexes along the RR, otherwise you must stop upon the first such square you enter.

5. I disagree. How realistic is a ZOC if the square is 200km on each side? I think a ZOC in Civ should only slow down movement, not stopping it.

	28-06-2001 11:18									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Provost,

Those seem to be bugs in the programs that were never fixed.

	28-06-2001 19:10									#9
	Re: Closing Overly Exploited Features and Loopholes Inflate your Upload Space

1. We Love the King Days - I agree, pop-booming in Civ2 and SMAC badly skew the game towards extremely unreasonable growth. I'd prefer if "We Love" days gave trade/culture/production bonuses, giving pops is too powerful.

2. Hanging Bombers prevent land attacks - I agree, air movement should be over land units, not taking up tiles for something 20,000 feet in the air.

3. Infinite Movement RRs - Disagree, I like infinite movement, and think it should be extended to airplanes who are able to refuel at airbases and cities, however still only have one attack movement.

4. Certain Wonders - Agree, but this is a gamebalancing problem, one that will always be looked at, balanced but still never completely overcome, Firaxis has gotten better at it though with each game so I see no reason for improvement not to be made in Civ3

5. ZOC Avoidance using Diplomats/Spies - Whole-heartedly agree, as much as I use it, it defeats the spirit of the rules and the game.

6. Rush buying - Agree, but only so much as improve the AI's use of it. The weighted scale of SMAC I liked, one rush buy per turn, but with a sliding scale of cost

	28-06-2001 22:51									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Did anyone ever notice the cheat in Civ2 where if you built an airbase on a hill, mined or not, you still got the full benefit of farmland on that square? Also in Civ you could click a settler on and off a particular terrain improvement task and you could get it to complete it the same turn! Little loopholes like this need to be tightened up!

The airbase improvement was just too much. I think you also got free railroad on the square in question. This might have to do with the comp treating an airbase as a size 0 city. The settler cheat of Civ I was fixed in Civ II I think. Both of these were probably bugs that just weren't caught.

	28-06-2001 23:06									#11
	Re: Re: Closing Overly Exploited Features and Loopholes Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV 1. We Love the King Days - I agree, pop-booming in Civ2 and SMAC badly skew the game towards extremely unreasonable growth. I'd prefer if "We Love" days gave trade/culture/production bonuses, giving pops is too powerful.

I dont think there should be any kind of city production-bonus connected to "We Love the King Days", at all. Added bonus-points in the "Hall of fame" window, is more then enough.

quote: 3. Infinite Movement RRs - Disagree, I like infinite movement, and think it should be extended to airplanes who are able to refuel at airbases and cities, however still only have one attack movement.

This could easily be optional; either way. Dont enforce a solution that more then half of us dont like: check out the About added RR-move related cosmic rule POLL.

I agree with your other comments, including refuel airplanes on airbases and cities - but only for a limited number of times per turn: max 3 refuels per turn (could be Rules.txt tweakable as well).

	28-06-2001 23:30									#12
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I'm not offering anything more then my own personal opinions. Besides that, it was also pretty well established that the poll was bias, quoting that poll isn't very fair.

	28-06-2001 23:49									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV I'm not offering anything more then my own personal opinions.

I understand - and your fully entitled to. I was only commenting.

quote: Besides that, it was also pretty well established that the poll was bias, quoting that poll isn't very fair.

Biased or not biased - you cant disquise the fact that most civers want a free choice then it comes to RR-movements. Why deny them that choice? You can tweak just about anything else in the Rules.txt files - why should "unlimited RR-moves" be an untouchable holy cow? I say: Have it your way (unlimited) and have it my way (limited).

Besides: if you not happy with that poll, why not post a new (and according to you) more objective RR-poll?

	28-06-2001 23:51									#14
	Suffering from ads?

Alright, we've argued over RR and Airplanes enough, lets try another poll, simply because I've never made one and want to try that feature out. Here's the address:

Railroads and Airplanes



Back to this thread, I think the the "We Love" days should have some tangible bonus to your civ as happy people are more productive people, some kind of bonus besides score should be in their. 10% productivity boost too food, trade and minerals? I think a full pop point is too powerful, but making a bonus just a percentage bonus, seems more plausible.

	28-06-2001 23:52									#15
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ralf Besides: if you not happy with that poll, why not post a new (and according to you) more objective RR-poll?

LOL, as you were writing this I was making a poll myself, bored people at work think a like

	29-06-2001 00:06									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV LOL, as you were writing this I was making a poll myself, bored people at work think a like

Then I jumped out to the mainpage, I thought "Deja vu". Spooky!

Anyway; although I voted "Finite RR / Finite Air Refuel", I really hope that they come up with a more flexible Rules.txt solution. As I mentioned above; Im all in for "Extended" Finite Air Refuel.

	29-06-2001 00:13									#17
	Remove this text

I agree, I have no qualms at all against more options. You can't go wrong with more tweaking posibilities, especially for the people who do the mods, they've got more great ideas then I'll ever pretend I have

	29-06-2001 03:40									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

hopefulyl the Firaxis mob have visited Mings list of Cheats identified in Civ2 ... all of them should be fixed,,

	29-06-2001 08:08									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I just hope they debug and play test it well....